okay you lost me here. what do you mean “push the weak UU”?
because i don’t think nerfing Leitis is going to make more people play Lithuanians, so i’m lost on what you mean by that portion of your statement.
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People like to play a civ because of a certain strategy. It can involve the castle unit. If you buff the organ gun of the Portuguese, more people would play this civ because they are strong.
Most people playing Mongols only because of the Mangudai not necessarily care if you win or lose. Maybe need some time to optimize the strategy. It’s first about having fun with the civ or that kind of strategy.
And how does nerfing Leitis lead to more interest in people wanting to play Lithuanians?
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Since the buff player like to play Leitis and that won’t change if you slightly nerf this unit with +10G. People would still play with this civ because of the Leitis. Leitis are too cheap so it wouldn’t change at all.
Player still like playing with Plume Archer although they are quite expensive now. The costs does not change their mind at all. It’s the strength. If you for example nerf Leitis by their strength but make it cheaper that would change more because then you can go for Knights and even with Relics then you can go for Frank’s or other Civ that would make more sense.
except Leitis weren’t popular to begin with. People preferred Paladins over them. Only after cost adjustments, they became viable. Plumes still have their clear distinction over xbows and arbs, and they’re ranged so cost bumps don’t affect their cost effectiveness the same way
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People didn’t play it pre buff.
And people play a mix now. Some go paladins some go leitis.
Nerfing it would cause less people to play lithuanians.
Except mayans are a very strong top tier civ even post nerf, and extremely commonly used at the highest levels. Whereas lithuanians are not. You see mayans used.
https://aoestats.io/stats/RM_1v1/1650+
Mayans #1 pickrate at highest level. Over 7%. 52.9% winrate.
Lithuanians #16 pickrate at highest level. About 2.5% pickrate. 45.6% winrate
Huge difference there
Mayans are used all the time in tournaments. This despite mayans repeatedly being nerfed
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Mayans are pick more and now?
I say the pick up rate won’t change a lot. You play Lithuanians because of a certain strategy. Looks like the Mayans strategy is more favored. That won’t change you buff or nerf the. That’s is a slight nerf and in your statistics, most people are NOT playing in tournaments. I prefer winning but win a game is not at all if the strategy I picked bored me.
There is a reason why developer wants to optimize the map pool first for balancing civ.
What’s wrong with having some civs rather one-dimensional and some civs rather versatile? I totally get it when people are advocating for versatility (that’s what I personally value the most for the civs I like to play with) but for people feeling the same: Just don’t pick Mongols. I mean there is over 30 civs in the game and plenty of super versatile civs to play with. You can’t have that amount of civs with an open tech tree or diverse bonuses without sacrificing distinguishability.
Maybe not so much on open maps but on arena, for instance, Mongol siege is excellent and frequently used. And even sometimes on ara Mongol siege comes in pretty handy. You indeed don’t use it all too often against your opponent’s siege but sometimes it’s just easier to get siege as counters to skirms than is getting hussar (because hussar doesn’t only require the res for the tech switch but also strong food eco to sustain production).
That’s not true. They certainly aren’t one of the best civs but they are okay. I think people haven’t really figured out how to play them correctly. Btw, now that ghost lake is in the pool, Tartars are really fun here, imo. Get the extra sheep in the center and you can go for scouts into immediate archers. Here, they have so much food to gather from that you can use your wood to build archery ranges and put new vills in early feudal straight to gold without worrying about getting a lot of farms down what usually is necessary when going for scouts. What other civ can do that? Works also to a certain extent on maps with regular sheep amount but the momentum isn’t a big so it’s harder to execute.
Well, don’t forget that Mongols don’t have halbs. How that is related to the siege bonus: Without halbs (and you almost never would go for heavy camels with Mongols) and without that strong anti-siege bonus cav and siege will just kill Mangudai.
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Better siege is a counter to weaker siege. And mongols have among the best siege in the game. Sure, they would still lose to celt siege, but that’s the best in the game…
It’s expensive, but you should also consider that your only other gold unit are mangudais. Franks can manage to push out paladins + TA which is not exactly cheap either.
Regarding cavalry, camels are still viable in melee, one less armor is not enough to make them completely worthless. I still would prefer mongols to get a hp bonus to their camels (though not 30%) so to give them a viable alternative, though.
doesn’t matter if its only, they’re still a 65g unit. If you can mass both Elite mangudais and onagers, you’re already winning. And no, I doubt Franks field both Paladins and TA every game and even if they can, they’ve a superior eco+ cheaper full HP castles for defense and map control. Its not a fair comparison
Doesn’t matter, camels are still not something you can pair with onagers like you pair halbs. And Mongols are not really a camel civ to get such a buff. Mongols are fine as is
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They can’t. Only on arena (or maybe other similarly closed maps) that can work. If you try that on arabia you usually have to alternate between the units, meaning you make cavalier, get a mass keep them alive, stop production and go axemen, kill halbs, and afterwards upgrade to paladin. Can work sometimes but if your opponents plays smart, I doubt you have success with that very often.
Not completely worthless but Mongol camels die to archers and defensive structures (same pierce armor as knight without any defense upgrades) which are usually around in imp. Only if you play vs cav only and you don’t fight under castles that makes sense, imo.
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doesn’t matter if its only, they’re still a 65g unit. If you can mass both Elite mangudais and onagers, you’re already winning. And no, I doubt Franks field both Paladins and TA every game and even if they can, they’ve a superior eco+ cheaper full HP castles for defense and map control. Its not a fair comparison
You can mass them both in closed maps. On open maps, you don’t even need to, because you can just use mongol mobility to choose when to pick a fight.
And no, of course Franks don’t research paladin every game, but they do it quite often, if it goes to late game. And it’s quite gold expensive. Moreover, Frank eco does not have any relevant bonus to late game, so it does not really make any difference for postimp fights. Though it helps a lot before that points, of course.
My point was using camels against heavy cavalry, in which case the enemy won’t probably have any good ranged units like arbs, which means that the lack of the last armor upgrade doesn’t matter as much. And if you are against hussars, your own hussar+mangudais will be enough.
How does a single bonus to camels make the civ a camel civ? A byzantines a camel civ just because their are cheaper? I don’t think so.
Yes but how often does that happen? As I said, against heavy cav only I agree. Still, say your against Franks, expect a lot of castles. And you know how fast unupgrades knights in castle age die when fighting under castles? Image having 20 hp more and that’s how Mongol camels do in imp. Most other civs that go heavy cav at least have some okayish ranged options and if the Mongol players goes camels you just go for these. Of course you can say, give Mongols the last armor upgrade but then you have to reconceptualize several parts of the civ and I’m struggling to see a reason for doing that. They are in a fine place (not too strong, not too weak), aren’t they?
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Yes, there is no need to touch the Mongols.
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And you know how fast unupgrades knights in castle age die when fighting under castles?
But when did I ever talk about sending camels against castles? I never said anything about that. You take out castles with either trebs or siege rams. If you need to raid, you just send hussars.
And no, I’m against giving mongols the last armor upgrade. They don’t need it.
Anyway yeah, they are, for the most part, fine. Mongols are too strong only in maps with a lot of hunt, but there aren’t many of those anyway.
There are civs which need more urgent balancing for sure, and even then I don’t feel like anything right now is completely broken. Aside the pathfinding, that is.
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Was just an example about how limited the use of Mongol camels is, meaning they are so vulnerable to defensive structures that you probably need to retreat oftentimes which isn’t exactly a good thing from a positional perspective.
Yes, totally agree here.