Balkan DLC proposal

[Temudhun]

@Sveaborgare

But if you go down this road, which African tribes would you add? There are litterally thousands and thousands, most of them consisted only of a small village, and was completely different from the tribe 3 miles away. There was no African nations like Congo, Sudan or Angola before, they are all European colonizaton inventions.

Takes a deep, deep breath and tries to stay calm and composed, fails miserably

Ok, what about Songhai, Soninke (Ghana), Kanuri (Kanem-Bornu) and Kongolese who built empires bigger that what any of the remaining European civs and most of the existing ones managed to do?
What about Swahilis (Kilwa, Mombasa) and Somali (Ajuran) who traded with India, Malaysia and directly with China?
What about the Nubians (Makuria, Alodia) who spent the entire Middle Ages resisting Arab invasions and Muslim conversion?
What about the Shona (Zimbabwe/Mupata) who built fortress so impressive that when the British colons discovered them they said “Nah, African people can’t have built something that big, they must have been colonized in the past by a people who mysteriously left no other vestiges or written records”?
What about the Edo (Benin) and the wall of Benin?
What about the Yoruba (Oyo) who managed to have a powerful cavalry south of the Tsetse Belt?
What about the Hausa and their numerous city states trading with the whole Sahel?
What about the Mossi, the Jolof or the Fulani?
All of those civs managed to build powerful states during the Middle Ages and some of them rivaled with the Malians and Ethiopians and waged war against the Berbers, Saracens and Portuguese.

@Sveaborgare

East Asia? What else do you want there? Every major eastern Asian empire is represented already, and more to that.

Tibetans? Jurchens? Thais? Chams? Mons? Tanguts? None of those ring a bell? I won’t do the same thing as I did with Africa, listing all their achievments, because I shouldn’t have to, but bloody hell all of them deserve to be in game!

@Sveaborgare

Americas is the same as Africa, you want to add a Amazonas tribe civ to AOEII? Go back to school and read history again and you might understand. There was only jungle and micro tribes that hated each other, being lacking history to add them all in to one “Amazonians”. Jeeez.

The Americas aren’t a continental-sized jungle with only three isolated people in it. Did you ever heard of the Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Purepecha, Chimu, Wari or Muisca?!

@Sveaborgare

This WAS a game about Medieval Europe once.

When? On release, with 6 out of 13 civs being from Asia? At the time when the third expansion introduced the Americas? When Forgotten Empire took over and added the Indians and Incas? With their first dlc about Africa and the second one focused on Southeast Asia? At which point in this timeline was it a specifically Eurocentric game cattering to your comfortable zone in which only Europe matter in all the world history?

@Sveaborgare

There is nothing wrong with Europe having more history than the rest of the world.

Except this statement is factually false and even with your master degree being in Europe you should know that. The six cradles of civilization are all outside of Europe, writing emerged outside of Europe, the only reason why we have the impression that history is all about us is that the history and pop history we produce mainly focuses on ourselves, not because any measurably greater relevance of one self-centered Eurasian peninsula compared to the rest of the world.

@Sveaborgare

Not to be demeaning to Africa now

He said right before being extremely demeaning and prejudiced…

[Sveaborgare]

Then, let’s just rename the game Age of Tribes II. I hope they add all those “civilisations” you mentioned above.

[Temudhun]

Tell me how any of the civilizations I listed would qualify as a tribe, oh supremely educated and enlightened person with a degree in Russian history? And how does a great peoples such as the Albanians managed to get rid of the quotes around “civilization” but apparently none of those I mentioned did?

[MUTYLATOR5553]

@Alexios732

Most important of all, new Architecture for Balkans especially Byzantines. Come on devs, Mediteranean architecture is too over stretch at this point.

For the high price of the TMR DLC, they should add the Caucasian Architecture Set for owners of this DLC in the future.

Balkan / Byzantine Architecture Set shouldn’t be for Caucasian civs - they got their own DLC as a unique region so they should also get a unique Architecture Set. This Architecture Set should be available to Byzantines, Bulgarians and Serbs civs (optionally also Slavs could use it).

[Nerathion]

@Sveaborgare

This WAS a game about Medieval Europe once.

More than half of the civs in Age of Kings were non-European. Yes, you could argue there was more European influences on unit lines and so on, because guess what - the devs created the game based on pop history knowledge of the audience. And even with that in mind, the game still managed to go outside of Medieval Europe for its time, and continued to do so throughout the expansions.

@Sveaborgare

True, I could of course be more specific, my specializations were Russian history. I wrote my master’s thesis about Novgorod.

Okay? So your claims about Africa being just tribes is… well, unfounded. Or is Russia an African tribe for you, that you’re somehow an expert on it?

Honestly, the recent influx of Russian/slavic nationalism on the forums has smelled really weird, not gonna lie. I truly hope the devs don’t actually look at whatever’s posted on the forums as ‘oh the people REALLY seem to want a Balkan or Slavic DLC!’ just because five accounts have spammed threads about Slavs in last week.

@Sveaborgare

Then, let’s just rename the game Age of Tribes II. I hope they add all those “civilisations” you mentioned above.

Once we get to a Slavic DLC after 3-4 DLCs outside of Europe we can name it ‘Age of Tribes’ and get your slavic tribes like Albanians or Serbians or whatever else added to the game, sure.

[Apocalypso4826]

Proof that college is useless:

A Masters of History graduate has less knowledge of world history than me, a guy who reads Wikipedia articles in his spare time. Even though I do think Europeans had the most relevant technological innovations, I’m still not going to discount other areas of the world just because they’re not Europe.

[Lakan247]

Hahaha wow this one wins. It’s almost 2024 and people still can’t use Google. You can just type what you need to learn and read for a few minutes. Instead use ego first and proceed to embarrass yourself. My goodness.

[Szaladon]

Correction, the person claims to have a degree. No offense, but I very much doubt that.

Like, I am really interested in history even though I’m not studying that, reading a wide variety of history books trying to learn new stuff every day. It’s kind of necessary to be curious to pursue studies and wanting to attain a degree.

Like, if you’re close-minded, I don’t think you’ll be able to attain this academic goal.

[DynasticPlanet5]

Here’s my thoughts on a future Russiatic civ:

Id want one that capitalizes on the Steppified ones, a civ that might have been more Euro like with Infantry but learning the ways of the Steppe because it’s probably the only place you could ever define something as “cav archer and infantry” civ. It could even have the flavor of Steppe Lancers but not have them great pr even lack elite upgrade

Well @Sveaborgare proving yourself as unbiased and non egotistical because you were born in a certain piece of land… As for Africans with empires and kingdoms….

Kongo resisted Iberian colonialism despite also not having horses like Mexico and South America.

Ghana was a huge power in the Sahara and mastered the salt trade and was probably wealthier than most of Europe combined. If any Ghana or Songhai ruler were to go to Eurpoe he would have created a recession.

Kanem and Bornu some say combine them but… Id rather not as its like calling Franks and Teutons the same because they’re both Germanic!

Nubia lasted a very lomg time it had been known since ancient Egypt.

Mossi were more a raider people but they lasted way longer than most of the Sahara civs. But we clearly have settled raider civs like Vikings Celts and less settled like Huns and Cumans.

Benin Oyo, Yoruba. All wealthy kingdoms in their own right with palaces and cities.

Your arguments agsinst this are bull! Provide proof of your claims or well, your tone seems awful… tribal, no? Isnt that ironic.

@Nerathion

Honestly, the recent influx of Russian/slavic nationalism on the forums has smelled really weird,

Id bave the same issue if it was Ghanese Nationalism. Sure Ghana is a civ we dont have anything for but the pride in something your grandfather’s grandfather was t even alive for is j due ego no matter what country

[Zaphiron01]

@DynasticPlanet5

Id want one that capitalizes on the Steppified ones, a civ that might have been more Euro like with Infantry but learning the ways of the Steppe because it’s probably the only place you could ever define something as “cav archer and infantry” civ. It could even have the flavor of Steppe Lancers but not have them great pr even lack elite upgrade

Could look at one of the Northern Iranian peoples for that, like the Khwarezmians or the Sogdians. They integrated well with their Turkic overlords, and you’d easily be able to add Cav archers and Steppe lancers of the nomads along with the infantry of the locals. Could also try the Tocharians, they were a bit farther east but still the same situation. Idk, just a thought.

[casusincorrabil]

@Sveaborgare

Another good tech could be Kosovo Curse

WTH?
Are you serious?

I’m still concerned about the TO after being banned for obvious diminishment of other cultures comes right back with the same agenda.

When you want to make a Balkan DLC you have to recognize and respectfully include all the different cultures there, not just your own and a few selected you don’t have differences with.

That’s why I have to dismiss this thread as I see it completely dismissing certain cultures still, yet not actively diminishing them anymore. But still. I am not willing to play into this nationalistic agenda. I have to oppose it.

[Sveaborgare]

Ehm what are you talking about?

[casusincorrabil]

You know happened in Kosovo right?

[Sveaborgare]

Yes, it was a battle there in 1389, prior to that the Serbian prince made a curse on any Serb that did not join the battle against the Ottomans. What does this have to do with nationalism? It is the history, plain and simple.

[casusincorrabil]

I doubt you chose it because of that. I think you chose it because of more recent history.
I’m not biting into your ancient history “lesson”, not a bit.

[Sveaborgare]

The funniest part is that I suggested Albanians being one of the new civs in a Balkan DLC in another thread. And now I am being accused of being a Serbian nationalist by some troll here. I despise people like you.

Just coming around with nothing relevant to say, just to pick a fight. Be gone, you troll.

[casusincorrabil]

@Sveaborgare

And now I am being accused of being a Serbian nationalis

I haven’t accused you. I’ve only stated that the thread itself in conjecture with the history of the TO leaves me to that conjecture it’s from a nationalistic agenda.
Please don’t put something in my mouth I haven’t said.

But I accuse you of actively trying to provoke by intetnionally lying down offending must-conjectures with recent history and then trying to play the victim of unrightful accusation.

And please don’t call me troll, that’s so pathetic. You want to provoke others? Then stay your man and don’t snitch when somebody stands up and throws some back on you.

And for those who aren’t aware what I’m talking about. Here’s the Wikipedia Aricle of the Kosovo War:

Kosovo War

[casusincorrabil]

@Sveaborgare

Yeah, because I am a “Serbian nationalist”. LOL

Again, haven’t said that. Why you are again repeating something I never said?
Are you thinking if you only repeat it often enough others will just believe you i did?

And btw if you don’t stop bearing false witness I have to flag you cause I don’t want to play this nonsense game. And to be clear I haven’t said what you accuse me off. But you actually have called me a

@Sveaborgare

You are a troll, an uneducated one too.

Which i find rather amusing. And I’m not

@Sveaborgare

offended

neither I’m

@Sveaborgare

American or a Mexican

But I find it quite intersting you think I would be from there. The fact that you comletely dislocate me is at teh same time funny and also for me an indicator I’m not appearantly biased.

[casusincorrabil]

Ok whatever…
I actually came here to revive a different though from years ago to add the shieldman as a new infantry unit. Unfortunately for this interruption I couldn’t finish. Which I think is the way better solution than the current gambesons tech.
Also cause I found some intersting videos about early medieval battles in northern europe that featured shiled wall formations - which were seemingly very common to use until heavy Cavalry became dominant.

And this here already took way too much time imo.
I criticized you because the whole concept tech is entirely and intenionally provocative.
And the reactions you give now with trying to provoke me personally second that imression for me.
But I never was of that kind that got easily offended that way, so… I will now just vanish from this thread and try to finish my Shieldman thoughts tomorrow.

Edit. Final thought n the topic: I also read some other posts of @Sveaborgare which don’t seem unnecessarily offensive or provocative to me. And they were also supportive to a diverse Balkan concept, which I totally second. I think there is definitely potential for a great balkan DLC.
I just hope it’s a bit more reflective and representative than this one.

[Sveaborgare]

@casusincorrabil

I criticized you because the whole concept tech is entirely and intenionally provocative.

This is ridiculous, it is some of the most important Serbian, let’s say poems, related to war. It has a strong meaning there. If unbiased history told as it is provokes you, maybe Minecraft will suit you better.

@casusincorrabil

And they were also supportive to a diverse Balkan concept, which I totally second. I think there is definitely potential for a great balkan DLC.

Yeah, I have never been advocating for anything less than a DLC that includes a good portion of the important Empires and states there, including the Albanian civ. Which could of course be provocative both to Greeks and Serbs reading this. Greeks would say there is no such thing as an “Albanian civilization, they are bastardized Greeks”, etc etc etc.

That sort of arguments or language would have been very provocative.

I was advocating for a tech based on the Kosovo curse, a concept which rallied the whole of Serbian nobility to put their differences aside, join together and fight the Ottomans. Something this could mean in the game is a knight-line that is impossible to convert for enemy monks. Giving the curse a meaning, that it is now or never.

My thoughts for a Serbian civ is that it should by all means be the second, but still different, Frank civ. Exceptionally good cavalry, good defences, below average navy, siege and archers, above average infantry.

Croats were always a good naval civilization, close contacts with the Italian city-states on the eastern coast. Good archers as well. A light cavalry unit. The word Cravat, which is an older word for a neck tie comes from “Croat”, the mercenaries and their scarfs, made such a great impression on the French nobility that the forerunner to the necktie was born then and there.

Albanians, I am thinking a strong infantry swordman unit, which is fast, like the Ghulam or eagles. With good stats against other infantry. Some hill bonus would be appropriate here, as the Albanians often fought in the mountain regions, with great success too.

A bit earlier in this thread I wrote this line:

@Sveaborgare

Since “Kosovo” is a sensetive topic today, it could simply being called “Curse of Lazar”.

But instead of trying to understand, you went on the attack instead. It is good to be well informed before you go on the offensive.