Beyond the Janissary

There is a lot of talk about how Janissaries are not done well and nobody will use them once they realize they are not part of the meta. I want to extend this conversation to other dead units.

Camel Riders: I watch a lot of pro games and nobody ever makes Camel Riders. I saw it happen once and the caster was laughing and saying it was probably a miss click. He was laughing because making a Camel Rider is actually so outside of the meta that it’s funny. I think they either need a traditional buff, or nerf Camel Support for Camel Archers and buff it for the Riders. This leaves Abbasids with only one unique unit in practice. Since they have no landmarks it makes the civ kinda bland.

War Elephants: Same thing. Everyone is making Tower Elephants. BeastyQT had an idea to give them splash damage and change a couple other things, so I know there is a conversation there.

Mangudai: This one annoys me because, coming from AOE 2, the Mangudai’s ability to shoot while moving makes it the coolest unit in the game.They are also the iconic unit of the Mongolians yet I never see them in high level games. Mongols are a tower rush and infantry civ sometimes which I find less exciting.

Pagoda: You would be forgiven for having no idea what a Pagoda is. Like who uses it?

Grenadiers: I would prefer them being too weak to them being too strong, but I sometimes forget they are part of the game after the last nerf.

Stone Wall Towers: I never see them and given that they are banned in tournaments, they need a fix up.

Siege Towers: Don’t buff them too much because then people will stop making stone walls, but try to think of something. I would make it such that stone walls can be destroyed by enemy infantry only if they are on top of it. This would give people a reason to use siege towers. Maybe make it so if your infantry is on the opponent wall and your mouse is over the middle of the wall, it tells your infantry to move to that position, but hovering over the edge of the wall changes it to an attack wall command.

Landmarks: I won’t list them, but many landmarks are never built. You can main a civ and not know the name of half of their landmarks.

Mongol moving buildings: This happens sometimes. BeastyQT had an idea to each Ger an extra 5% drop off resources for every 1000 resources it has collected to encourage people to move the old ones instead of building new ones.

Units I don’t see often but do still see sometimes are Horse Archers and Landschneckts (edit: and ribauldequins).


theres a pinned post for jans man…


This post is not about Janissaries at all. It’s about all the other units we forgot about. I gave it a click bait title so you would click on it and be mad at me :wink:


Not a good idea i think :smiley: bc it also pulls the jans fans. Soon it’ll turn into a janissary topic.

Flagging it as inappropriate then

You’re either trolling (intentionally wanting to make people upset) and/ or you’re advocating for jans in yet another spam post

I’m betting this is another alt account. You’re still directly advocating for Jan buffs. :face_vomiting::face_vomiting:

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I agree, it is sad to see, that there are so many elements in the game that find rarely use :+1:

I think the camel rider has its purpose, it can really shine (if upgraded). There is no better unit to produce if u have cav raiding ur eco. But this unit cost gold, requires a lot of techs to get all the benefits and is situational. I would produce it more often if the total tech cost are not so high. You could be wasting a lot of gold here, for smth that a spearman can also do and u will never mass in big numbers. It is a pop-efficient counter to cav and way stronger vs knight / archer comps, then a spearmen. I think we would see it more often as an addition to the regular army if all techs would be reduced in its cost


This is a terrific topic, and it has nothing to do with the Janissary, a quick look is enough, can you read?

What is this? Collective insanity?


This is what I meant, the game has never buffed any ranged units because they have the advantage of micromanagement

they are actually pretty good they arent bad as you think i use them in games specially against french they are perfect only thing bother me about them is their price it is too musch

They either need a splash damage or more health because since they are big they cant find a opening and try to circle around units

i make every game mangudai i definetly start with them excellent raiders they are so good and i usually play mongols

Good but i never build it :smiley:

i didnt saw them after nerf but they were so op it is amazingly hard to win against them

at least we have them they are decorative and i sometimes used them

thats %100 true some never built

so smart i liked that

i never seen a person created ribauldequins


bro wrong thread this is not about janissary


It’s the only micromanagement video I’ve ever seen…

I found about archers

I’m directly advocating for people to shut up about Janissaries and talk about something else. I could care less about Janissaries. This is a medieval game and I don’t care for any unit that uses guns. Never played the Ottomans because of it. I’m quite the opposite in my opinions as a Vin alt.

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There was one guy on reddit saying how people are sleeping on came riders, he done some math and appearantly camel riders have same dps with horsemen against archers. And that they get like 5 armor in imp(full upgraded).

I mean you would still want to spam horseman instead of them because of the cost but good to know that they can fill the role of horseman when cost is ignored.

Pagoda is better but more expensive monastery basically(gives more value from relics). I don’t remember if pros were building it or not but I use it when I go yuan, I think it’s useful.

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This is another alt account.

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Maybe pick a less dumb title then…

I think right now elephants need a bit of work.

Camels I think people are kind of sleeping on, at least in Imperial.

Grenadiers need a buff for sure.

Siege towers totally need a rework.

I do think a few landmarks need reworked.


That’s the thing.theyre incredibly good generalists, with the speed of horsemen. You can cost effectively counter knights, with significantly higher speed than spearmen, much better pop efficiency, and better Vs archers

They can also fill a similar role to knights while being more gold sustainable, i would be very careful with tweaking them, they already have a lot of good things going for them

I agree, but at the same time, China has such a strong late game, I wonder if that’s why grens haven’t been tweaked after their nerf, I think a lot of other less used stuff have been subpar for longer needing tweaks more urgently (considering how good grens used to be, and how strong China is currently)

Maybe with the firelancer nerfs there will be more room for grens? Even then not sure, considering their eco, HC, etc

Very poor way of doing it then

eSports make the game boring, when deva listen to pros that their only objective is to win tournaments and abuse any mechanic possible then you get boring gameplay.

I wonder if they should be buffed in Imperial Age so they have raiding potential in Feudal and battle potential in Imperial. Kinda like how Zhuge nu have power spikes in Feudal then again in Imperial.

Everyone on this thread is saying this, but until I see pros make a single one I don’t buy it. Maybe give them some sort of buff in Castle if they are good in Imperial.

Theres more people being boomers about the janissary posts than there are people complaining about janissaries.

Camel riders are hella underated. They come out ready to 1v1 most knights in age 3 and have dps comparable to an maa. Issue with them is that you need at least 2 blacksmith techs to get them off the ground - camel rider barding and camel handling - and those only
re effect 1 or 2 units. If those techs are just absorbed into the base stats of the unit thats prolly all the buff needed to see them on a regular basis.

Other very underrated units are ribauldequins - these technically give more dps per res and pop than hcs with the tradeoff of being alot slower and having less range. They dodged the hp nerf to siege and benefit from the new siege works - meaning they can have 420 hp and 10/10 armor a piece, while hitting like almost 6 hcs.

Mangudai … they are and arent weak. On the one hand they aint worth sht before post imp. After post imp tho, they just beat all melee units. I saw Szalami mass up 60 ming dynasty lancers and a bunch of mangidai obliterated them in seconds without a single loss - lancers died running away, I heard throat singing through the screen, holy sht. Anyway, a small base damge boost for their age 2/3 versions and a corresponding cost increase feels like it could let them be equally relevant at all stages.

Now, war elephants. Yea war elephants suck. The have a similar conceptual problem in that they cant force a fight with thier specialty while getting beat up by everyting else. Saw a test recently where they’re damage and attack speed was alot higher than normal. Mayhap the got a stealth buff? Gotta check on that. Either way, they cost too much for a civ with a eco like Delhi to really be usefull. Imo, a slight boost to siege damage, and putting thier unique techs in age 3 shold be enough to make elephants usable.

Grenadiers are alot weaker now. For sure not worth a ming dynasty. In a vacuum, they are a good support unit but in practice waaaaay to expensive now thst they dont come with auto win status. Reducing the cost to 180 might be a good place to start strengthening them.

I know what a pagoda is! Its the ming dynasty unique building that gave +100 of all res per min when you stick a relic in it, for a total of 400 res per min. It had a build limit of 3, meaning up to 1200 res per min. Iirc it was nerfed to +80 of all res per min and buffed to avialible in Yuan in a privious dynasty rework. With the current relic nerfs it might be worth something. Still, China aint no relic civ, this thing felt awkward as hell.

What the fck is a siege tower?