Bringing the Arambai back to life, after it was nerfed to the ground

[SMUM15236]

@SirWiedreich

How so? Organ gun starts from a lower ledge than Conq or Janissary but is still a decent CA UU. And only gets better with added range and smart projectiles in Imp, either of which would make Elite Conqs/Janissaries significantly better.

My mistake. I thought elite has only 18 attack.

[HeBroGaming]

@AbuzzJam4677680

Arambai is actually pretty good against most melee units. So making it good against archers seems to make an almost unbeatable unit.

It is already good againist archer after the change of its missing shot. Before the change it is worse against archer and good againist melee. After the change it against melee unit is not as good as before. So I think if the direction of developer is changing it to this role then just reinforce this role is fine.

[Nerathion]

@SirWiedreich

which shouldn’t be punished for being strong in Castle Age with a thoroughly unimpressive Elite form.

The thing is, because the Castle Age version is already very strong, it’ll continue being strong regardless of whether the upgrade itself is impressive or not. Conquistadors and Janissaries (and to a lower extent Organ Guns) really do not need better stats in Imperial. Arambai would like a buff overall.

[SirWiedreich]

@Nerathion

The thing is, because the Castle Age version is already very strong, it’ll continue being strong regardless of whether the upgrade itself is impressive or not.

Eh, conqs especially are good for a different reason in early-mid Castle that doesn’t scale well into Imp, or compete well with the other options Spanish have in most cases. Castle age conq is strong because it performs ~like a cav archer that already has several key upgrades. Elite conq performs like a Heavy cav archer that is missing several key upgrades, especially when it comes to range, accuracy, even DPS. I get the hesitancy to buff Spanish or Turks in Imp on the civ level, but I suspect that making these units more competitive with their generic alternatives wouldn’t be as game-breaking as some people think.

[HeBroGaming]

@SirWiedreich

I suspect that making these units more competitive with their generic alternatives wouldn’t be as game-breaking as some people think.

I think so. I always think that buffing elite ver of gunpowder uu like turk spanish burmese portuguese can give those civ more option and won’t break the game. For example portuguese uu in imp I think is relative quite OK as long as you have a large number (turk spanish burmese uu imp age with large number is also not very helpful). However I still think that developer will not do it because of the civ design reason.

[Nerathion]

@SirWiedreich

Castle age conq is strong because it performs ~like a cav archer that already has several key upgrades. Elite conq performs like a Heavy cav archer that is missing several key upgrades, especially when it comes to range, accuracy, even DPS.

Umm, what? Yeah, early castle age a Conquistador does more DPS than a few Cav Archers (esp if missing Thumb Ring and Ballistics), but once those are researched Conqs have the ‘same problem’ as they do in Imp. Conqs are strong because you don’t need a high number for them to be effective, and in larger fights their accuracy doesn’t really matter all that much.

You’ll need a much higher mass of Cav Archers for them to be as useful as Conquistadors are in small numbers. Upgrade-wise, the ‘missing key upgrade’ is basically Bracer. Not several. And that’s the difference of one range and one damage. Consider also they’re much stronger against Elite Skirmishers, or other units in general due to having more HP (and armor until Parthian Tactics is researched).

[SirWiedreich]

Most of the points you’re making seem to refer to the relative strength of Castle Age conquistadors vs Cav Archers, which we’ve already covered. The point is that Conqs compare favorably to Cav Archers, but it’s extremely questionable whether Elite Conq even provides value comparable to a fully generic HCA (IMO it doesn’t -I’ll do a breakdown in another thread, but it’s not pretty). I don’t care for that kind of design on a(n Imp) UU, nor frankly the design of any unit that doesn’t scale well. By Imp, 5 HCA can raid about as well (probably better) than 5 Elite Conqs, so that ability is no reason to go with EConqs in Imp (especially when you can make Hussar and Cavalier/Paladin, which are effective with less babysitting. If nothing else, the upgrade cost of Elite Conq could be reduced significantly to at least be consistent with the current design of “unit that’s strong early on/in low numbers, but scales poorly.”

@Nerathion

Upgrade-wise, the ‘missing key upgrade’ is basically Bracer. Not several.

Bracer, Thumb Ring, and Ballistics are my obvious 3 - every one represents a significant, if sometimes situational, advantage that fully generic HCA has over Elite Conq (not to mention hidden stat advantages CAs have). Organ guns scale much better than conqs because they get increased range (“Bracer”) and the ballistics effect. You can argue so as to minimize the impact of not being able to track moving units in certain contexts, but it’s at least moderately limiting for ranged raiding units. The lack of any tech that improves the firing speed of conqs also means that in practice, their effective DPS will be reduced a lot by overkill.

You’ll disagree of course, but apart from balance, my #2 priority is making all units, but especially UUs more useful. Castle Age conq obviously doesn’t need any help (and could even be eligible for a small nerf if Spanish early game was buffed), but I consider that Elite does. Or again, at least reduce the cost of the Elite upgrade to be commensurate with the (low) value that it provides.