Definitely not. I guess you’ve never tried anything else so that’s the reason why you think nothing else works.
Introduce Ram Ships, introduce trash ship, introduce a monk ship, introduce a repaier ship, introduce a galley that counters Fire Ships and Demos but very weak against Galleons, introduce a ship that can build outposts on water, introduce scouting ship
Non used bonuses for water:
Galley-line +1/2 range per age
Galley-line +1/2/3 attack per age
Ships regenerate
Free War Galley
Free Heavy Demo or Free Fast Fire
Ships can regarrison in Docks
Ships have +1/2/3 ship armor
Docks work 40% faster
Free Gillnets
Free Careening and Dry Dock
50% cheaper Transport Ships
See Docks after construction
Galleys have +10 damage against Buildings
These techs/civilization bonuses could make water more interesting
4 Likes
It would actually be easier to fix the Water civs as they are now, improving their bonii and Tech Trees, rather than introduce new Ships.
I understand what you say but that still doesn’t mean that that there should be 10 civs that completely destroy the other 25 civs in any circumstances. There should rather be 10 civs that are stronger but not op against the other 25 civs. Buffing portuguese on water would actually be a bad decision. Its like lets say chinese and aztecs were much better on land and you wanted to buff all land specialized civs to their level instead of nerfing that two
I would definitely like if some civs would get some of these bonuses that haven’t had a water bonus before. For example turks were good on water but they have nothing except extra range cannon galleons. But I didn’t like if koreans saracens or portuguese would get these bonuses.
YES! That makes more sense!
Other Buff ideas:
Japanese: Ships have +50% LoS instead of Galleys only. Trading Cogs and Transport Ships have double hitpoints and +2 pierce armor and add Heated Shot to the tech tree to make their lategame very strong
Spanish: Galley-line projectiles move much faster(harder to micro)
Malays: Bring back old Harbors
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all for an organ buff. nobody uses one of the most unique units in the game. and the feit too
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I can understand why you’d want more civs to have water bonusses, and adding these to some civs sound fun.
I really can’t understand why you and @JonOli12 think the water meta would be more interesting if some civs are much better than the “generic” civ (full tech tree, no bonuses) whilst many civs are much worse. I’m trying to, but you 2 don’t appear to have given a reason.
On land maps all civs are slightly better than the “generic” civ, which makes all of them somewhat viable.
2 Likes
Well, what makes Nomad interesting, is that Mongols and Chinese dominate it, alongside some other early booming civs.
What makes Arabia interesting is that it is dominated by fast and aggressive civs, like the Franks, Celts and Persians.
Black Forest is interesting in turn, because it is dominated by very lategame steamroller civs, like Koreans.
Different types of maps have different types of preferred civs, and with 35 of them, it is just better if they specialize in different theaters, rather than all of them trying to be good in every map type, which will produce painfully generic civ designs.
Yes. There will be only one actually which is Japanese.
I see the usual battle of @Szebo210 
Actually nerfing top water civs is a solution.
Please notice that we are talking about pure water. Ot is basically island-like map. It is an extremely particular setting. So, if a couple of civs are much better make sense. It is like Mongols on valley, there is a clear advantage for them.
In hybrid maps italians are extremely mediocre… we have way more civs, like Japanese, Malay, Persians…
Well, arabia 1v1 is the reference. I would say that every civ should be at least decent. Currently this is true for almost every civ but 3-4 (Including Portuguese and Italians).
So, Overall, what is really important is to have a land game balanced. After the land game is balanced, you can buff water by changing water specific bonuses with some possible compensation for hybrid maps.
One thing making difficult the water balance is that 3 of the civs which are supposed to be water civs are unplayable on land (especially Portuguese and Italians). So it does not make a huge sense to me talking about water balance before the land balance is fixed…
Not really. While valley is just a map which specifically buffs one civ which has a bonus to that kind of maps, water balance is much more important. There are literally units like galley, fire galley, demolition ship, and techs made for this map and these kins of maps. I wouldn’t call it similar to valley. While it is obvious if there are radical maps like forest nothing or valley, the civs which have bonuses are hugely favoured (celts and mongols), since the whole gameplay is based on hunting and chopping the wood. While on water maps like islands celts for example aren’t that bad, because while they have worse navy than water civs, they have better economy. In forest nothing and valley maps the fact that portuguese have better navy doesn’t count anything. This basicly proofs that water is an extremely colourful map where lots of things count not just the strength of the navy and not only some few cicilizations should excel. While 10 should definitely be better than the others, there shouldn’t be a big space between them, like currently between italians and say a random civ like slavs.
I can see your point. But in parallel I would say that there are maps where you win if you if you have a hunt bonus. Similarly there are maps where you win if you have a water bonus.
Btw, I am fine with nerfing Italians and Vikings (you convinced me in the past), even a heavy nerf. But:
- first let us fix the land balance since italians and Portuguese are critical
- let us compensate possible water nerfs to make the civs decent on hybrid maps.
I’m totally with you.
Ok now they got it. I think no gold Drush and OG cost 4 less gold are the most valuable buff here. Saving 2-5 more gold per units would not be that great in Feudal or Castle imo. Let’s see how much they improve.
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I just made a 6 Militia Drush as Ports, so it is quite decent. Knights at 60 Gold are also amazing, and Cavaliers are justifiable in the Imperial Age.