Or it could be a flat 20% to farming to compete with Hepha.
Sure, less to do lore wise with artemis as a hunter but it for sure would be a buff
hunts the rats that eats crops or something.
But a late game hunting based eco surely works, Lakota in aoe3 basically works like that.
Isnt that the civ that doesnt have farms?
They do have farms. All civs have farms. But they have a way to obtain mass huntables in the late game if needed.
I feel like Greekās unique identity has been powercrept on since Chinaās release, and yeah Japan contributes to that, too. This is probably impossible to fix without significant changes at this point. But yeah, maybe Greeks are okay for tournament setting or on specific maps, but if youāre a new or intermediate player, why would you ever pick them? What are they supposed to be uniquely good at? Feels like everything with makes them unique is powercrept on:
- Strong unique heroes? China has them, too, and theyāre arguably much better than even Greekās tier 4 heroes except Berllerophon. At the same time, China has massable hero units on top of that. Greekās tier 1 and tier 2 unique heroes are also really pathetic for being a unique unit, at least by Retoldās standards, I believe that even a single Japanās Onna Musha does much better job at repelling myth units than any of Greekās tier 1 heroes, while also being massable. Tier3 Greek hero is also whatever, I think it needs more buffs. From what Iāve seen, making several ranged heroes as other civs while spending the same amount of resources is equally as effective, but then as Greek youāre also limited by only one ranged hero. So really, only tier4 Greek heroes are truly threatening, and Chinese are better even at thatā¦
- Strong classical age army? Powercrept on by Japan, not even a contest, you canāt fight them in classical age as Greek or youāll lose to bushido upgrades (and Japanās units are arguably better too). I also think that, while Chinaās classical age is overall weaker, Chinese fire archer is powercreep over toxotes, in a way - itās much better at what an archer is supposed to do (countering infantry) and it also has bonus against buildings for some reasonā¦
- Strong lategame? Both China and Japan also have amazing lategames. Probably better than Greek lategame in equal situation.
- Unique bonuses? Very lackluster compared to China and Japanās mechanics.
- Myth unit strength? Classical age Greek MUs are nice (but even then, all of them got repeatedly nerfed to a point where theyāre not that great anymore), but after that - both Japan and China have way more busted myth units, for the most part. Also, favor gain to mass those MUs? As of this moment, China and Japan have an equally easy time getting enough favor for MU spam (IMO). And Greeks have to sacrifice part of their economy for favor gain. China doesnāt sacrifice anything except building placement I guess, and Japan isā¦ comparable, as you have to delay vill production to make Mikos, but I think atm Mikos are a superior option compared to Greek vills praying on temple, at least until lategame.
- God powers? Except Restoration and Bronze, what Japan and China get feels better in a lot of cases.
Greek are also uniquely weak to myth unit spam strategies thanks to their āonly 4 hero unitsā gimmick. Greek also donāt have good sustain healing options except what, Apolloās healing temple (note: Resto doesnāt count, itās burst heal preferably used in a large fight). While Japanese get mikos with insanely good healing, and Chinese healing options are also much better, even if some require specific minor gods.
I think the only strong points which Greek still have are early classical age pressure (~4-ish minutes), and super-duper lategame if they go through Hephaestus - they can just out-sustain opponents thanks to plenty vault(s). But it feels so lackluster.
Interestingly enough, both Norse and Egypt, while also being āvanillaā civs, still seem like theyāve saved their identity, at least for now. As in, I still think thereāre things which Norse is uniquely good at, and same deal with Egypt.
I see, then i was confusing it with another game that has a civ from another game that doesnt get farms but has their whole eco designed around that. Back to the idea. Yea you can make any concept work really, its a matter of design and tunning.
Yea, i guess with this new modern civs the design space is much better with new technology so its telling how much deep mechanics go. It would be cool for greeks to ger abilities, or even the passive aura the chinese hero gets. Its less insane now that the heroes were nerf. Its only mostly perseus thats worse, poly and belle are better now, but theres still the pioneer side.
This part is partially not true. Greeks have an early advantage window to deal damage with their faster eco and heroes (faster since you begin with and extra villager) Japan suffers from a slow start and takes time to get going. After that it does get quite strong.
Theres little things that beat 2-3 vault greek late game. Japan might be up there, China not so much anymore.
Dunno how to feel about this. dunno how you are looking at it, in the creative aspect for sure, china and japan are far deeper. In a balancing sense the gods unique bonus of some japan and china gods arent much better that the ones greek have. I would call it more on the eco and unit aspect of things.
Im not gonna argue that japan favor gathering is not overtunned, it could def be lower but arent you hving a blindspot for where do miko come from and the resource investment into that?
Greeks have the best god powers for the most part. Resto, cease fire, bronce, underworld, vault and lighting storm are very good. Curse is very situational, its very good early but has awful scaling. Pestilence is also niche and EQ rlly got the short end after the fort patch.
Besides swampland which is a kill 0 units to kill 26 roulette and win the game. And the mythic age typhon the others are more tamed than what greek has to offer.
This comes as an interesting thought since depending where you ask people complaing eggy is a lot different than what it used to be on AoT, with now having a very good classic age power and less turtling into heroic and midgolds. Norse got the most changes to this new era, so it kinda checks out that they remained similar. They got 2 new units, a modified third and allowed to build houses as villagers, all which expanded their options to contest what they have now. Eggy got monument bonuses and greek just got the hero flying attck change so they were the least ārevampedā
I donāt think itās sufficient to say āif Japan reaches late game, you loseā and leave it at that. That framing treats the problem as inevitability, when in reality itās the result of stacked mechanics that could be tuned. Japanās late game isnāt powerful because of a single defining weakness traded for strength ā itās powerful because multiple systems overlap without constraints.
The Asura is the clearest example. Seventy percent pierce armor on a fast unit that deals splash damage while moving fundamentally breaks counterplay. Ranged units are the intended answer, yet they barely function against that profile. Greeks are supposedly meant to answer myth units with heroes, but we are hard-capped at four heroes who lack special abilities and meaningful scaling. Meanwhile, Japan can field myth units, mass heroes, and mass ranged heroes at the same time. At that point, ājust myth spamā stops being advice and becomes a dead end.
This exposes the broader issue: Greek counters fail structurally, not tactically. As Hades, I can try to rely on Gastras, but once there are several Asuras, killing them one by one becomes impossible due to their speed and durability. As Zeus or Poseidon, unique units like Myrmidons or Prodromoi often die before even reaching their targets. The Prodromos itself is a good example of asymmetric design done right ā devastating against cavalry, but extremely vulnerable to arrows. Japanese cavalry heroes, by contrast, retain high pierce resistance and exist primarily to counter myth units, yet lack a comparable vulnerability. Very disappointing! Again, has the tools to deal with lots of stuff, but not with much constraints. Why play Greeks when there is Japan.
Olympian Weapons being floated as a solution only highlights how extreme the compensation would need to be for Greeks to function ā turning unique units into heroes just to survive sustained myth and hero spam. That should be a red flag, not a destination. Greeks donāt need more tools; they need their existing constraints to actually pay off.
Ultimately, the issue isnāt that Japan has strong late-game units. Itās that Japanās tools donāt meaningfully constrain each other. Greek choices close doors; Japanese choices donāt. Until that asymmetry is addressed ā through real vulnerabilities, clearer tradeoffs, or stronger payoff for Greek hero limitations ā the matchup will continue to feel structurally unwinnable, not merely difficult.