Buff Sicilians

Thats eco. Not military

You can’t separate that. Khmer are a good knight civ because of their eco.
Having a bad eco makes all lines worse in the aftermath.


Ngl I think they leave the new civs weak on purpose. After all they did say they didn’t want to affect multiplayer balance, and they probs want people to stop thinking they always release super OP civs. Gotta make up for the Cuman 11 They aren’t single player only civs probs because they didn’t want some people to be frustrated about that.

I think that they made the serjeant a feudal age unit in part to add a gimmick to the civ, and in part because tower rushing that can happen only after u built a castle suck unless ur Japanese. But they have to make it a weak option, they don’t want to have to deal with an Inca tower rush bis. Add to that the fact first crusade is still a big burst of military numbers and that’s a lot of burdens on the serjeant. So buffing it is tricky on many levels.

Well the in-game tech tree doesn’t even tell the player how much bonus damage units deal, so it’s not like they expect you to calculate everything 11 In practice it’s quite easy to figure it out with a bit of testing and looking around:
-their archers still lose convincingly to skirms because skirms rely a lot on their own armour
-their scout can 1v1 a spear in feudal age, their knights are almost camel-proof and their LC/cavalier are better against their counter than normal hussars and paladins.
-their infantry still lose to HC and still get destroyed by catas and jags. But they do hold up better against slingers and their halberdiers aren’t coutered as easily by skirms.

I would say it’s the main fault of the bonus, it barely helps infantry which is supposedely the focus of the civ.

As of buffs, one I think that would be fine no matter what would be buffing their monk tech tree. Their monks actually aren’t affected by the anti-bonus protection so there is no reason for this bad monk tech tree, especially now that siege isn’t affected either. Or instead bring back the bonus for siege.

An idea that I read elsewhere is to make first crusade a buffed castle age version of conscription, and even remove conscription itself. Depending on how strong it ends up being (don’t forget it can combo with faster castle construction for treb production) it would maybe open the door to stuff like cheaper elite serjeant upgrade.

Both Sicilian eco bonuses work toward a decent castle age boom, I wouldn’t be worried about their knights. Especially when they beat camels in equal numbers.

No, the bonus is only for the lategame, because it takes so long until you get something of it.
Opposit to the teutons which can use the bonus either way: Normal farms for a stronger knight rush, more farms for booming.

There is no denying this bonus is weaker than the Teuton one, but double effect horse collar does help in castle age too.

For sure it can help, but almost all cav civs can perform a better knight rush than sicilians just because they can field more. It’s usually a few minutes into castle until your first farms expire. And those placed after horsecolar come like 5 minutes after that.
So it doesn’t effect your knight rush which is the powerspike you like to use most with cav civs. That’s why I say their line is less than average in the aftermath.

Man this just make things even worse in my opinion. Of course no one knows every bonus damage in the game, but he can judge the outcome of a fight based on his experience. Example, if I have 20-25 knights I know I can fight a certain number of pikemen and camels; with sicilians of course I know I can be more aggressive to take those fights but to fully utilize the bonus I need to develop a new sensibility to sicilian units, to know as precisely as possible how far I can go to take those fight. Which is a nice idea for a SOTL video but to me seems pretty boring and annoying, considering also that it’s something that is actually useful only if the opponent decides to go for counter units.

if anything this is actually good… new civs should be forcing you to play differently, that is the point, to keep the game fresh… you can no longer counter kts with camels, so you need to find another angle (for example)

but this is the issue, sic is good v counter units, but bad v raw damage due to lack of eco… if they buff the eco, they will be even better v counter units (and their civs, like byz)

so they might have to tone down the damage bonus a little if they buff the eco enough…

imo they need a minor eco buff, a donjon price decrease and access to TR, as it stands they are hot garbage vs civs like teutons who can rofl stomp them with raw damage heavy cav and they get neutered by twrs

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The question is, if they need a eco bonus.
For me it looks like these civs are designed around their powerspikes. Why not giving them certain powerspikes like free military units everytime they age up?

First Serjeants, then archers and knights when reaching imp, would be an example.

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That is a different story. It’s ok to have something different but give us simple maths! This game is about fast decision making and I can’t make proper fast decisions if the maths behind the game is complicated, expecially if those wacky bonuses start combining.

Example, if I have 50 sicilian arbalest and I need to take a hill with 20 tatars Eskirms on the top, how on earth am I supposed to decide if I can take the fight or I need to run? I know that atm this is an extreme example, but this shows that complicate the math is detrimental for the game, expecially if these kind of bonuses start to multiply in the future.

i guess this works with their theme as well (1st crusade, military over eco whatnot) but would have to be very minimal

someone recommended 3 sgts in feudal which is actually insanely OP, even 1 sgt would be good since thats 95 resources, and allows him to drop a donjon without vil idle time

so even if it was 1 sgt feudal, 2 sgt castle and 3 sgt imperial, its still quite a boost. and it plays into their donjon theme.

but 2 or 3 archers in castle could work, but again could be potentially quite strong, even 2 free units per age is quite significant in comparison to what some civs get…

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and buff burgundians too


Give them a stone bonus (like extra stone at start or free stone mining techs). This sinergizes with their kit:

  • Easier boom into first crusade

  • Easier castle drop

  • Easier donjon rush

  • And allow them to defend against tower rush better


Well, bad monk tech tree is just historical reason? Good monk tech tree usually given to civ with stick to one religion and famous for religious belief (e.g. Saracens, Teutons, Spanish). And Kingdom of Sicily was multi-cultural nation accept both Muslim and Christianity. There is not much historical justification to give good monk tech.

I don’t think it is ideal to give back seige bonus. Then they will win every mangonel war and huge advantage in treb war. It is crucial for high level play.

Their bonus purposely huge effects on their cavarly. Norman was good at cavarly(knight), and success on their battle against Berbers/Saracens (Camel). FE team posted historical justification of Sicilian bonus.
The History Behind the Sicilian Civ Bonuses - Age of Empires II: DE / II - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum

That is an easy fix. Stone at the beginning as lithuanians, or per age as Ethiopians?

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like usually for civs it would be hard to balance out how much stone to give them since towers are cheaper and if you give them even a little stone it already allows for a tower + tc. whereas with sic their donjons are so expensive i think they have room to gain quite a chunk since they cant spend it…

1 factor is the market though… im not sure if there is maybe some how some way they could abuse whatever stone they get at the market (if the amount is too high)

i reckon they could get at least 50 stone without making them OP, for almost any other civ it would be too much (since stone is worth the most) at least that way they can drop a donjon, and only need to eat 50 more stone to get a tc (other civs only need 25 more stone after a twr so sic is still worse off)

imo as long as it is less than 100 it might be ok…

something else: make the donjon count towards aging up. donjon + BS, age up pew pew, saves them a huge amount of wood though.

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I have thought stone at the beginning, like liths, or free eco stone techs, as burmese with lumbercamp

free stonemining eco techs cant be abused with the market too much. You would still have to mine it before abusing market

What about increase the bonus damage to 65 or 75 % (or even make it 50, 60 and 70% per age) and include the monks and the siege in it (siege could be cap to 25%)
This bonus is the only eco-military bonus that the Sicilians have besides the farm bonus and is more like an anti-bonus for the enemy counter units
This way you have to make less military units but the proper ones to go agro
And they really need a water bonus IMO

Sic is already really good vs counter units as it stands already. If you haven’t already, watch the sotl video about it. Increasing the bonus just makes them stronger where they are already strong, but doesn’t help vs raw damage. Most civs can just produce raw damage meta units and just beat them on eco…

Yeah, like malians with gold they could even just receive the first one for free.