As you might be aware from previous posts I’m surprised that the Upatch, upon which the DE is apparently going to be based, buffs the Assyrian (arguably the strongest civ) but doesn’t really do anything for Carthage (arguably the weakest) . Even the Greeks were buffed with faster fishing ships and cheaper hoplites.
Carthage has no economy bonuses and only improved bowmen in Bronze which limits them considerably. Unlike Choson who can draw some relief from Towers in Bronze to deter the archer hordes Carthage are pretty well stuck.
Two solutions spring to mind either:-
+2 range on slingers from bronze age. This could reflect the baleric slingers that were often used in Carthaginian armies. This could provide a useful synergy with their hoplites as ‘tanks’ protecting against cavalry and the slingers providing anti-archer cover.
Or…
Faster Cavalry, almost (not quite) as fast as Palmyran Camels. This would reflect Carthage often relying on large volumes of mercenary light cavalry. Game play wise could allow Cavalry for Carthage to remain more relevant into mid bronze against a critical mass of archers and make them effective early bronze raiders.
Faster Cavalry, almost (not quite) as fast as Palmyran Camels. This would reflect Carthage often relying on large volumes of mercenary light cavalry. Game play wise could allow Cavalry for Carthage to remain more relevant into mid bronze against a critical mass of archers and make them effective early bronze raiders.
Thoughts?
I would go with the cavalry bc, it is more historically accurate. But then again, i am working on my PhD in Biblical studies with a consecration in Ancient History, so I am a little fan boy when it comes to historical accuracy lol. but if we want balance here, but want to stay true to history then the second option you gave would be the best one to go with.
I did wonder if something could be done to make Carthages improved bowmen better, as it’s a shame we never really see them, but going Cav or Slinger seemed more historically appropriate
I’m not sure Carthaginians need a civ specific buff. They already have extra HP on their hoplites, but what makes Carthage weak is that hoplites are pretty much useless. Making hoplites more competitive should allow the Carthaginians to hold until they get to iron and can use elephants.
@qweytr24 said:
I’m not sure Carthaginians need a civ specific buff. They already have extra HP on their hoplites, but what makes Carthage weak is that hoplites are pretty much useless. Making hoplites more competitive should allow the Carthaginians to hold until they get to iron and can use elephants.
They don’t really have anything good in Bronze and are a slow Civ. The only way Hoplites will be better in Bronze is if they get pierce armour but this is already Macedonia’s ‘thing’.
Let’s review their bonuses:-
25% hps on units that don’t get good until Iron is of limited benefit. You will struggle getting there and if you do I suspect you would be better off with HA to begin with.
Faster Transports is hardly a bonus at all, how many transports do you build on average in a game, probably a figure between 0-1.
Additional attack on fire galleys - again most of the fights on water kick off in Bronze with fleets going trireme long before Alchemy and do you really want gold spend on your fleet when a gold dependent civ?
If Carthage were a late game power house I could see the asymmetric balance but they don’t get scythes (the ultimate iron unit) or an economy bonus to give them a comparative advantage in production.
@qweytr24 said:
I’m not sure Carthaginians need a civ specific buff. They already have extra HP on their hoplites, but what makes Carthage weak is that hoplites are pretty much useless. Making hoplites more competitive should allow the Carthaginians to hold until they get to iron and can use elephants.
They don’t really have anything good in Bronze and are a slow Civ. The only way Hoplites will be better in Bronze is if they get pierce armour but this is already Macedonia’s ‘thing’.
Let’s review their bonuses:-
25% hps on units that don’t get good until Iron is of limited benefit. You will struggle getting there and if you do I suspect you would be better off with HA to begin with.
Faster Transports is hardly a bonus at all, how many transports do you build on average in a game, probably a figure between 0-1.
Additional attack on fire galleys - again most of the fights on water kick off in Bronze with fleets going trireme long before Alchemy and do you really want gold spend on your fleet when a gold dependent civ?
If Carthage were a late game power house I could see the asymmetric balance but they don’t get scythes (the ultimate iron unit) or an economy bonus to give them a comparative advantage in production.
Scythes will surely be rebalanced, so they will not be as dominant in the late game. With that Carthaginian tanky elephants should make them a powerful late game civ. Though they could be given metallurgy or chain mail to make their late game units better.
It’s true that Carthaginians are slow, but there are many civs without any eco bonuses and in my opinion Carthage is not even the weakest of them. I’m not against any buffs for them though, they are clearly a poor civ on random maps. But if they are buffed, I think the other slow civs like Choson, Greece, Persia and Macedon should also get something.
Scythes trample damage radius has been reduced in the Upatch, but not spotting anything else.
Who do you think the weakest civ is?
Choson can use their Towers in bronze.
Greece in Upatch get faster fishing boats (econ bonus) and cheaper hoplites as well as having them move faster (so a double bonus - making Carthage stick out).
Persians are not going to be slow with Upatch now hunting is faster and they get the wheel. Craftsmanship for compies = range.
I never had a problem with Macedon as the Los on their villagers means that early economic planning is good and axemen almost act like scouts in chasing down enemy villis which is a great unique bonus. Sure no wheel hurts them but their bronze age military is good, compies, half priced stone throwers and effective bulletproof hops.
With land-maps I think the Greeks and Chartage are both pretty weak. But on a water/land map (like coastal or continental) Chartage is a sad version of the Greeks. The fast transport ship bonus is indeed a non-bonus, better give that speed to the 25% stronger fire ship.
Or: seeing that they are a late-game gold dependent civ. Maybe give them a small goldmining bonus? Like: villagers collect gold 10% faster.
@“Mystic Taboo” said:
Faster Cavalry, almost (not quite) as fast as Palmyran Camels. This would reflect Carthage often relying on large volumes of mercenary light cavalry. Game play wise could allow Cavalry for Carthage to remain more relevant into mid bronze against a critical mass of archers and make them effective early bronze raiders.
Thoughts?
Cavalry as in cavalry, heavy cavalry, and cataphract sound good. Carthaginian has strong late game with elephants+ all upgrades on Helepolis. Giving easier access to eliminate the catapults and priest whilst also slightly buffing bronze age plays makes it easier to hold the gold mines. Carthaginian Is extremely gold dependent civ and needs some help on keeping the gold mines so that it is possible to use all those powerful late game units.
Not having Chain Mail nor Metallurgy ensures that Cavalry will drop down on iron age.
If you can’t get gold then you are in a worse position than most of the civs. No siegecraft for slingers. No ad/armor for scout or axeman. No access to CA or chariot. Only unit you can use somewhat effectively is bowman and even it is weak unit because yo can get only +4 armor.
Buffing slinger or giving scythe chariot would make the game play too similar to other late game civs.
It’s true that Carthaginians are slow, but there are many civs without any eco bonuses and in my opinion Carthage is not even the weakest of them. I’m not against any buffs for them though, they are clearly a poor civ on random maps. But if they are buffed, I think the other slow civs like Choson, Greece, Persia and Macedon should also get something.
Most of the other civs with no eco bonuses have better Bronze age units or faster bronze → iron age transition.
Greek has good hoplites, and slingers got all buffs. strong at bronze and fast bronze->iron transition. Choson has very good turrets with the ability to hit enemy stone throwers and catapults until late iron age. So much easier to play defensively than with any other civ. Persian has hunting bonus and hunting in overall is faster in Upatch. makes it fast civ. Not fastest, but faster than most. (upach added wheel to Persian) Macedonian has +2 pierce armor on hoplite and all units are 4x more resistant to conversion. Very strong civ on bronze (especially with 50% cheaper stone thrower), but not fast to get there. if it got any kind of economical bonus it would be too op.
Carthage is not as weak as you might think as they get camels, which can work quite well against CA. If anything, choson is weaker than Carth. Nonethless, an additonal bonus would be ok. Here are some fun ones: free wheel (as in they get wheel right as they enter the bronze age), or ship upgrades cost -50%. The slinger thing is a good idea as well. But I think this would be a great bonus for Choson.
@BlazingGaming13 said:
Carthage is not as weak as you might think as they get camels, which can work quite well against CA. If anything, choson is weaker than Carth. Nonethless, an additonal bonus would be ok. Here are some fun ones: free wheel (as in they get wheel right as they enter the bronze age), or ship upgrades cost -50%. The slinger thing is a good idea as well. But I think this would be a great bonus for Choson.
Chosons tower bonus works well in tool and bronze age. Carthaginian is only civ with no bonuses pre Iron age (health bonus for hoplite does not really help and transport ship bonus is useless). Next one is Phoenician with 15% faster woodcutters, but all other civs can use effectively their bonuses before iron age.
Instant wheel sounds nice. Not sure how effective it is since Carthaginian do not have chariots. Having cheaper market upgrades (50%) could be better bonus. Would give faster scaling to late game without giving strong initial buff.
It’s true that Carthaginians are slow, but there are many civs without any eco bonuses and in my opinion Carthage is not even the weakest of them. I’m not against any buffs for them though, they are clearly a poor civ on random maps. But if they are buffed, I think the other slow civs like Choson, Greece, Persia and Macedon should also get something.
Most of the other civs with no eco bonuses have better Bronze age units or faster bronze → iron age transition.
Greek has good hoplites, and slingers got all buffs. strong at bronze and fast bronze->iron transition.
Carthage also has all bronze age upgrades for slingers and Greeks have no bonuses to make them any faster to iron. All they have going for them is slightly better hoplites than Carthage, but you still can’t hit the enemy eco with them, as villagers can just run away from them. Also defending against raiding cavalry or CAs is hard with hoplites. Choson has very good turrets with the ability to hit enemy stone throwers and catapults until late iron age. So much easier to play defensively than with any other civ.
As with most slow civs the late bronze pushes with stone throwers is not a problem. The problem is early bronze rushes with cavalry or CAs. Towers don’t do much when the enemy raiders run past them and kill your villagers. You will basically have to wall up to survive until iron. Persian has hunting bonus and hunting in overall is faster in Upatch. makes it fast civ. Not fastest, but faster than most. (upach added wheel to Persian)
With the UPatch changes the Persians are more viable, but their economy is still lacking. Their speed is very dependent on having plenty of animals to hunt, which you might not always find nearby. And they have absolutely no military bonuses in bronze so they will nave to get all the way to iron to get good units. Macedonian has +2 pierce armor on hoplite and all units are 4x more resistant to conversion. Very strong civ on bronze (especially with 50% cheaper stone thrower), but not fast to get there. if it got any kind of economical bonus it would be too op.
Without wheel the Macedonian economy is very weak and their villagers are unable to run away from trouble. This combined with the fact that their best units are very slow makes it very hard for them to defend against raiding by cavalry or CAs.
None of these civs is objectively worse than Carthage, but none of them are much better either. I think they should all be buffed.
Carthage is objectively the weakest Bronze age Civ with Choson and Greek not far behind but at least these two have bonuses that are kind of useful in Bronze. Getting to Iron unmolested is quite a big ask in multiplayer.
Camel bonuses are already Palmyras thing and Palmyra is otherwise very similar with Carthaginian.
Having Composite bowmen wouldn’t do much. You need something for earlier in bronze, also no Chain mail makes the composite bowmen worse option than with most other civs, but giving chain mail could make the Elephants too strong in iron age.
Palmyra is the only civ with a Camel Bonus. Palmyra has a slow start and is good once it gets going, it has Camels with CA, Compies or HA for support in RM and AE and Heavy Cats in DM. Carthage uses specifically stable (Generally Camels over Cavalry) maybe with a few hoplite as support in RM and AE and Hele in DM. They have similar playing styles but with Palmy being archer orientated game play is drastic enough difference for both Civs to be unique. Buffing something players already use will increase Carthaginians bronze performance, and you get Camels much faster than you get Chariot Archers. There are three civs on this list that have poor archers in Bronze Age, making Carthage have some sort of strong archer unit would increase their performance as well. However adding things like 50% cheaper techs is very tedious and untidy to implement and hasn’t been done in RoR (Same with free techs).
@“Mystic Taboo”
You must be unaware how OP the Slinger rush is in RoR. Why do you think Vietnam plays with no tool :D. If you were to add it I think it would only be +1 Range, which would still make Slinger too powerful. Slingers are the second most common military unit imo, increasing their performance with a civ bonus would have to be heavily considered and not taken lightly. Faster cavalry is a ok idea, it’ll increase there play ability but it would also create a fourth themed bonus.
That’s why I think the HP should be increased on Camel Riders.
Giving any defensive mid game power to Carthaginian would be balance vise cancerous.
Having late game powerhouse with defensive play style makes games boring and very one sided.
Choson is good example of this. Wall in and use towers to defend yourself. Legion/longsword works best as a defensive unit because of movement speed. Priest are much better in defense than in offense. Attacking is possible only after you have Helepolis.
Carthaginian needs reactive way to play in mid game!
Foot archers empower more passive play style. Foot archers are rarely used for attacking in mid game, if map is large.
Camels are easy to counter so attacking with them isn’t too great. (Palmyra can escape so easily with them making harassing enemy workers so much safer and less punishing. If enemy tries to attack you can just call the camels back and defense.) More health to camels only makes it easier to defend against certain comps. It doesn’t allow you to make plays as easily as faster camels or faster cavalry would.
Bronze age range bonus for slingers is bad buff on itself. Slingers are most used units in tool and if you can create them enormous amount knowing that they are going to be useful much longer than any other unit it alters the games atmosphere too much. Big part of this game is the fact that any old unit is going to become irrelevant when the game progress.
Faster cavalry is still the best one. Forces you to make plays if you want to have any good advantage of the buff.
Camel bonuses are already Palmyras thing and Palmyra is otherwise very similar with Carthaginian.
Having Composite bowmen wouldn’t do much. You need something for earlier in bronze, also no Chain mail makes the composite bowmen worse option than with most other civs, but giving chain mail could make the Elephants too strong in iron age.
Palmyra is the only civ with a Camel Bonus. Palmyra has a slow start and is good once it gets going, it has Camels with CA, Compies or HA for support in RM and AE and Heavy Cats in DM. Carthage uses specifically stable (Generally Camels over Cavalry) maybe with a few hoplite as support in RM and AE and Hele in DM. They have similar playing styles but with Palmy being archer orientated game play is drastic enough difference for both Civs to be unique. Buffing something players already use will increase Carthaginians bronze performance, and you get Camels much faster than you get Chariot Archers. There are three civs on this list that have poor archers in Bronze Age, making Carthage have some sort of strong archer unit would increase their performance as well. However adding things like 50% cheaper techs is very tedious and untidy to implement and hasn’t been done in RoR (Same with free techs).
@“Mystic Taboo”
You must be unaware how OP the Slinger rush is in RoR. Why do you think Vietnam plays with no tool :D. If you were to add it I think it would only be +1 Range, which would still make Slinger too powerful. Slingers are the second most common military unit imo, increasing their performance with a civ bonus would have to be heavily considered and not taken lightly. Faster cavalry is a ok idea, it’ll increase there play ability but it would also create a fourth themed bonus.
That’s why I think the HP should be increased on Camel Riders.
Fair opinion. I was aware that buffing slingers range for one civ would be risky hence why I suggested only making it effective from Bronze age (Hitiite galleys scale up over ages in Upatch) this would stop it being overpowered.
@pate623
In what way does giving a civilization a buff in Camels make them a defensive civilization? It doesn’t, it makes them more aggressive. Camels are not defensive units like the others you’ve mentioned, yes they counter Cavalry, Chariots and Chariot Archers but generally that’s what people make in Bronze. Because Camel Rider’s don’t need very many upgrades to make them effective and don’t need a prerequisite to make them viable in Bronze (Such as Compies or Chariot Archers) you commonly see players being on the offensive with them and not defensive. Buffing them will give them a viable offensive option in the Bronze Age.
In RM if your Choson you generally rush your opponents as without nobility or any good units in bronze, regardless of a wall or not, you’re screwed. They have no CA, they have no Camels, they have no Compies but they do have cavalry, and their cavalry are poor in Bronze without nobility. I’ve never seen a Choson player use the strategy you’ve mentioned, I would appreciate it if you could please provide me with a video of someone using the strategy in competitive play, because it would be interesting to see how viable the build would actually be. Maybe you should try it out once DE is released?
The only hard counter against Camels is Hoplites and the only civ I see using Hoplites in Bronze is Macedon. (Rarely Greek)
If you want a reason to use Slingers in the bronze, Range won’t cut it. In early stages of development Upatch used +1 Range for Greeks instead of cheaper Hoplites (Which still isn’t enough for Greeks). They had an extremely OP Slinger rush but didn’t have the strength to be viable in bronze. If you want to see Slingers in Bronze, you need to wait for an expansion that adds Improved Slingers .
Faster cavalry is not a bad bonus but I would still prefer more HP on Camels.
@“Mystic Taboo”
This is an interesting way of dealing with it. I haven’t considered this method before. I think adding range to Slingers (even 1) would make the Slinger rush too strong for that civ.
I don’t think adding range from Bronze Age to the Carthaginian slinger would make them too strong as either a unit or civilisation. Getting a critical mass of slingers and getting to Bronze for the then free range upgrade would be a lot of food and obviously slingers can only be built in Tool. Assuming they keep the Timeline and stats like largest military in the DE then anyone playing against a revised Carthage who allows them to get to Bronze with a mass of slingers and nothing to counter really deserves to die. If we go with your suggestion of +1 from Bronze rather than my +2 I can’t see there being a problem at all.
You would expect the non-carthage (particularly those with econ bonuses, now including Greeks on water maps) civ to hit Bronze first if Carth is diverting resources to slingers unless the Carth slingers are being built in transition from Tool to Bronze but then it’s unlikely there will be a critical mass. On hitting Bronze the opponent can build Cav and if really necessary short swords (no research in Upatch)
I don’t have a problem with a Hp buff to camels instead but:
Is there any historical tie in for this bonus, were Carthage a camel heavy civ? The original bonuses had a very rough historical flavour (Greek Hoplites charging at Marathon, Shang great wall of China style, Macedonians eating lots of carrots to see in the dark )
It would have to be a very mild buff as otherwise it might make Carthage Cavs redundant and make opposing players shy away from Cav.
Currently, only Mace has a stat bonus on Cav with that only being Los, so it seemed like a useful and fairly vacant flavour direction to go in. Obviously Baby stone mining bonus and Yamato cost bonus makes slingers and cav units relatively cheaper but no explicit stat buff wheras:
Cav - Mace
Camels - Palmy
Cats - Hit and sumer
Swords - cho and rome
Academy - Greek and Carthage
Compies - Mino
Chariots - Eygpt, Hit, Assy
Priests - Eygpt
Ele - Persian and Carthage
Horse Archers - Assy
Warships - Yam, Pers and Hit
I think Cav speed might be the way to go personally, if camels going fast for Palmyrans doesn’t make them OP I can’t imagine making Carth Cav faster (but a bit slower than Palmyran Camels) would break anything.
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