Bulgarians' archer counter

So I was thinking about it.
It is really hard to win against archer and cav archer civs with Bulgarians in castle age and later in imperial age.

Generally the most intuitive is to buff their siege.

I like the idea of giving Bulgarians free Siege Engineers or making their SW upgrades cost less.
But those come into play just too late.

I think a better solution is to give their siege +1 pierce armor as a civ bonus. Makes it so much better to counter archers in castle age with mangonels or scorpions and the effect is still but much less visible in Imperial Age.

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Huh? They have skirmishers with most upgrades, and Idk why you would be struggling against archers in castle age when their cavalry options are so good. You could also try pike siege. a mangonel and two scorpions do wonders against an archer army


oh, so you think Bulgarians don’t struggle against archer civs?

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why would they outside of the obvious eco difference between them and archer civs?

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I would propose giving them Siege technologies costing 40% less. Bulgarians were tough at sieging cities and even wanted arabic mercenaries for that purpose, and I feel that having just ordinary siege is odd.


Exactly you don’t have any eco bonuses or direct military bonuses for the military you produce (apart from krepost). Realistically Bulgarians fall back compared to any other infantry civ when playing against archer civ.

Lacking defensive armor for skirms is a huge deal against arbalests and again - you cannot justify going it.
Mass knights die to monks+crossbow.

Bulgarians is in a really bad spot rn.

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Skirmishers work well paired with Knights if you research stirrups

Yeah, you don’t have eco for that.

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But how youc can give them eco bonus when Knights with Stirrups are close to be invincible, there’s basically a reason why they don’t have eco bonus, and what one could get whe all other are already taken by other civs.

You need 650 stone for a Castle + 400F/200G and you probably want to make Kreposts with your stone.

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I don’t buy all those “archers are OP” reasons for balancing civs. If you look up the winrates you will notice that none of the archer civs shows outstanding results. Also, the stats for Bulgarians do not display anything special about archer civs.
PS +1 pierce armor on siege makes no difference against crossbowmen.


yeah ive also made this mistake before… but as SC pointed out it makes no difference to xbows in castle age… it specifically only helps vs imperial archers…

That’s a good point, only HP bonus will help siege against archers

Oh, please prove me wrong. Do tell me how a civ that gets amazing elite skirmishers, siege onager, siege ram, faster attacking cavalier and hussar with full upgrades, elite konnicks, and kreposts struggles against archer civs.
If you have problem countering archers as Bulgarians then I fail to see how you counter archers at all since they have more than enough in their arsenal to deal with them; way more than most civilizations

Then make eco
You can make byzantine cataphracts work if you, ya know, actually boom into the option as opposed to just saying “they don’t have the eco for that” because they don’t have an economy bonus. Make vils, research heavy plow and double bit axe, it isn’t that difficult.

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Oh you’re right more pierce armor doesn’t actually help mangonels nor scorpions 11

Whoops, my mistake.

Yeah, the game on high enough level doesn’t work like that.

So they can make monks + mass archer but you can’t make knights + skirms? Yeah you’re going to hate to wait on stirrups but the rest? Easy.

Monks and archers require zero food

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Maybe so, but realistically you don’t even need that many knights. Make skirks the bulk of the army until you’ve got the eco for more knights.