Here’s a build order of burgundians that I find quite strong.
Do normal scout build for 21 pop. Push at least one deer.
Get double bit axe and horse collar in transition to feudal.
Up to feudal. Get heavy plow. Start making scout, for a total of 6 for example.
Get bow saw as soon as you can
Go to gold when you have >17 vils on food
After 5 on gold, click wheelbarrow followed by hand cart
Click up. In transition, get gold mining and gold shaft mining, build two extra stables, get scale barding armor
When up, make two knights, cavalier upgrade, husbandry and get chain barding armor
Can delay extra town centers a little bit for a huge power spike
I’ve done it to reach castle age around 20:30, thanks to early heavy plow, no farm needs to be reseeded yet. It can be quite a big power spike going on.
Comparing it to classic franks pocket BO, which can reach castle age around 19:30, Burgundians will be 4 knights behind when reaching castle age but will catch up with 3 stables production and cavaliers are stronger than Frankish knights.
Excuse me but I’m going to be skeptical about this build. How are you making scouts and heavy plow at once? Also handcart is so expensive for feudal age, you would be better of using all the food to click up faster and the wood for a stable. Which you will need since the cavalier upgrade takes so long to research so you defo want like 3 stables.
Sticking to only double bit axe/horse collar early and maaaaaaybe bow saw sounds more realistic to me.
By clicking double bit axe earlier than other civs, burgundians get around 60 more wood in this build. A reasonable timing for it is 30 sec after clicking up to feudal (you need to gather 100food from unfinished boar and sheep), and knowing that feudal age needs 130 sec to complete, you benefits 100 sec of 10 vils on wood going from 21 w/vm to 25 w/vm so that’s (25-21)*10*100/60 = 66.66…
Plus as I specified, you need to push at least one deer for 140 food. In this case you only need to spare 60 wood for heavy plow, which is doable.
Dear BudgingAtol724, do you have some tests for this? To prove the viability of this of course. I’d be interested in - I believe as well as others - in age up times and resource amounts maybe. As it stands right now this seems a bit too crowded(?) during Feudal or, well, mathematically questionable - to me at least.
With Burgundians, there is no point in doing extended Feudal fights. The scouts lack bloodlines, so they will eventually get worn down by archer/spearmen and enemy scouts with bloodlines. You also don’t want to invest into archers too much. On the other hand, you get Cavalier or Coustilier in Castle age. It takes 260 seconds to finish castle age research and cavalier upgrade. With these in mind, doing heavy plough and hand cart will delay castle age times too much. Burgundians should try to get there to enjoy their military superiority in castle age instead of questionable economic advantage in feudal age.
Also after setting up your farm eco in Feudal age, your wood requirements are not high (unless you want to boom in castle age). So even bow saw can be delayed after clicking castle age.
So basically the burgundian bonus has only one use : click wood upgrade 1~2 minutes earlier. They can’t afford next-age upgrade while keeping reasonable uptime.
Burgundians is meh civ, it is so weak and not worthy at all, and their eco bonuses age before, are not worthy to make especially in open maps. This civ need a redesign again and need buffs, and their UTs need something better, add Sicilians to them too.
I would just replace the Gunpowder bonus with something else. Maybe a mild discount on eco techs. Since right now it’s not very useful to actually get most of the eco techs early because of uptime delay, a cost reduction could make it so.
I think it is the problem that the game is hard to balance between open and closed maps. A bonus which kicks in only in Imp is almost completely useless in Arabia, while depending on the tech, can be insanely useful on closed maps. But gunpowder is especially finicky because Hand Cannons are a terribly ineffective unit, and bombard cannons are expensive to produce, can’t really be massed easily, so the bonus ends up being very situational and weak
If its 21 pop, not 20, shouldn’t you be able to do double bit axe very early, as soon as you get lumbercamp up, as long as you put more vils on food? Like starting with 7 on food instead of 6 (you will get more wood with double bit axe)
Well it’s mainly because of that missing free food to make all upgrades, no?
So what about reducing the food cost of the upgrades mainly to make them more viable. eg all eco upgrades cost 50 % less food?
But you lose even more res with less vills aging up.
Because it’s a very situational bonus and basically completely worthless on open maps. It also doesn’t really have any synergy with the rest of the civ bonuses, feels like a bonus was just tacked on as an afterthought.
But it’s still an expensive unit with 35 HP, and terrible accuracy, only available in imperial age, and only after researching one of the slowest to research techs. I think Burgundians would benefit more from something that makes their feudal age a bit better than from HC with overkill attack stat.
It does. Burgundian are a cav civ, and HC that have more base damage and more bonus damage to infantry synergize just fine with that. Also the Burgundian did like artillery, so the bonus makes sense historically too.
And if you think the bonus is weak, why remove it? Burgundian don’t have 7 civ bonuses like Teutons, there is room for more.
In team games, yes. I can’t disagree with you there. But in 1v1 open maps, its pretty rare, and most resources get exhausted so a lot of focus switches to trash units, so not much going for the HC in this situation.
HC already do huge amounts of damage to infantry, so this bonus is literally overkill. 17 base attack and 10 extra damage is already 27. Infantry usually don’t have very high HP, so this is another reason why I’d prefer some feudal age buff instead of this.
I think being able to get the eco techs a bit earlier than other civs without too much delay in uptimes would really help the civ stand out. Then together with the cheap cavalier tech, the civ could go for some strong castle age pushes
No point is that if you put more vils on food early instead of standard 6, you can afford wood cutting upgrade while still making vils as lumbercamp + 2 houses + double bit axe is exactly 200 wood so you don’t need to put exactly 7th vil to wood, but even 9th would suffice. And doing it with 21 pop is completely doable as 21 pop uptimes are very forgiving