both are broken
this is obvious to anyone who plays teamgames
well celts can not go cavalier in castle age and kts with celts is pretty lame for imp transition , they also did not get wheelbarrow and hand cart as easily nor the farm one which yeah thats not the greatest one but are already cost efficient in late feudal for both imo and are a little investisment , celts also did not have a lot of gold generated by farms nor relics bonus for food they have only wood bonus which is one of the best economy bonus but thatâs the only one and not as strong as burgundians one for me especially if you can grab there tech in dark age and completly make them already profitable (for wood one ) once you get in feudal age, with no bo at all i got the better eco in first try for scout rush build that i can remember with 7 scout produced while uping castle a 18min30 while aving all eco upgrades and then going for 3 stables + 2tc when i am struggling to play 1tc 2 stables whith this uptimes usually
you could in theory go ahead and grab Wheelbarrow, but its going to put you behind by about 3 villagers while you do so.
Thatâs the main issue i dont think its is viable since like 8-9 farm at least even with reduced price , i personally prefer to do it at usual and then get 88 food which is 1 scout for free to get a better uptime
in tg pocket franks are clearly too strong i can understand that but they are not a broken civ on 1v1 thatâs what i was talking about , just bad explanation from myself
no, but then again, those cavalier lack bloodlines and take time to tech into - and the cavalier research still costs about two knights worth of resources, not to mention the 2 knights worth of research time - so you have to ask yourself - is it better to get out two more knights or research cavalier. its not as simple as you think it is.
its rarely going to be worth it to get wheelbarrow or handcart too early, and by the time you do get it, the food savings arenât going to be as important.
its rarely going to be worth it to get wheelbarrow or handcart too early, and by the time you do get it, the food savings arenât going to be as important.
well , while i agree for not having wheelbarrow , handcart as early as possible thatâs definetely not viable, you can grab that whith a very nice food saving thatâs 88 food save for wheelbarrow in late feudal age thats is a lot especially combined to other eco upgrade, as for hand cart , not sure when the better moment to do that ( i think just when you can and have something like 20+ farms but thatâs is sure itâs castle age and 150 food saving is a nice addition for one opponent who will often not tech this in castle age to imp as faster as possible
no, but then again, those cavalier lack bloodlines and take time to tech into - and the cavalier research still costs about two knights worth of resources, not to mention the 2 knights worth of research time - so you have to ask yourself - is it better to get out two more knights or research cavalier. its not as simple as you think it is.
Yup instant cavalier are not worth it but lacking of bloodlines in early castle especially as sooner is clearly not a problem , especially since you can make probably make more kts than your opponent cavalier tech is a plus which is strong in kts war when i think youâve got someting like 10 kts husbrandy cheap is also cool but cleary just a plus as well , the problem that i think is is the great eco combined with great army for both castle age and early imp while not being as bad for late imp, yes celts , vikings etc have a strong bonus eco but they donât have military option too strong as well. vikings whith the best eco bonus in the game have only crossbows , no cavalry thatâs is good balance since farming bonus is too strong with and even vikings is tied (as for me ) with chinese to the best 1v1 arabia civ with no great military option , burgundians have both they have a great eco and can use them very early to gain an abyssal eco differences. Thatâs my opinion i can understand yours but i donât think itâs comparable
not really, food is still a limiting factor in early castle age, especially when youâre trying to boom - so in early castle age youâre going to be seriously limited as your knights are inferior to other civs.
Whilst burgs are indeed a powerhouse in castle and early imp, their early game is still kinda weak.
And you can see it in the stats, all across the board their winrate below 20 mins is far beneath 45 %.
I agree that the Flemish revolution is too strong right now and should definetely be adjusted or completely reworked, but everything else seems fine. Burgs trade a whacky early game for a very strong mid to early lategame - and thatâs completely fine.
and even the early mid game is kind of lackluster.
Its not a lot of gold. You need over 30 something farms to equal a single relic. The advantages are not as large as some may think and your seeing a better win rate because you can finally do what the civ was ment to do. If anything one of the more op things specifically at lower elo is the revolution is a pain for cav players. It dont have a problem with it but if you dont prepare it can be crazy. I would want to give it another month let the hype die down then revaluation and then make nerf calls. The civ doesnât seem to oppressive at the moment and doesnât have a real counter figured out in meta yet.
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well this is entirely tired from my experience , winrates are completly useless in my opinion when talking about balances so itâs not just because winrates that i think that
agree, I think if they have a good Idea to tune the revolution down they can do it with a hotfix.
But I think the general idea of a game-ender mechanic is actually a nice addition.
My Idea would be to only convert farrmers to flemish militia, but I think it could be anything which tunes down the sheer number of them.
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Then whatâs the other form to meassure a civâs strength??
It is subjective, but honestly the opinions of pros are the best way to judge a civ. They have the most experience and know how to make the calls on whether a civ is broken or not.
Just because some players lack the experience to use a civ properly (e.g. Malay) doesnât mean theyâre bad, and just because players donât know how to counter common one-trick braindead plays (Franks) doesnât mean theyâre too strong.
*Braindead meaning endless knight spam into throwing Axeman no matter what happens, which is usually what 95% of Franks pickers do (95% being up to at least 1500-1600, which is 95% or so of the ranked player base)
but just because a pro says something is broken doesnât mean its not balanced. Burgundians have a broken eco, but their units ultimately are less efficient so they need that better eco.
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Very good point, yeah. One extreme strength isnât bad, in context of the rest of the civâBurgundians are absolute garbage without gold, Iâd say one of the worst, and their siege is awful. They rely on their Paladin powerspike and gunpowder heavily to succeed, with Flemish Revolution in their back pocket. Their post Imperial isnât great.
yeah they have very bad siege indeed. only civs with worse siege would be lithuanians and goths.
well opinion of players is most important since no one would argue that chinese is not too strong so this civ is too strong. meanwhile the 48.01% winrate is completly wrong about it.
Problems with winrates and the reason is for me they are completly useless:
-Knowledge of civ , someone with 1200 with not know how to play chinese and will be sometimes even behind in villagers in dark age where you should be 2 villagers ahead and even 3 on certain map with instant food (eg; mudflow) since itâs a civ which is hard to use.
-Some âfun stratâ but completly not viable or a least easy to counter , i am sure that a lot of guys maybe like 10-15% at least is pickings persians for tc rush did you think itâs good for their winrate ? I donât think so.
-Low elo, itâs really easy to use a civ like franks and probably the best civ in low elo since their gameplay are basic so once again it break winrate one more time because i donât think any game from low elo should be considered for balances changes and if we put high or at least intermediate elo games only, thatâs is not a lot of games after all to jugde that.
but their units ultimately are less efficient so they need that better eco.
i think you value bloodlines too high, bloodlines is a problem only when in case of full feudal with a lot of scouts which is the weak point for burgundians and when vs other paladin with bloodlines but how often did you see paladin in 1v1 ? thatâs often too expensive, for late imp tg at least yeah le lack of bloodlines can hurt, but they got terribly too strong since early castle at a point where they will very probably take a great advantage after + they havnât test the croustillier not sure about spelling ? which is designed with no bloodlines as cataphracts i donât tested it enough post nerf so i will not say that they replace paladin but they can i think especially vs melee units.
While I agree that the civ that your profile pic represents need nerf as well Burgundians need watching, you are wrong here, just because all people thing something is OP doesnât mean that is, go and see how many AOE 3 players complain about Japanese (The daily Japan nerf complaint as always) and still this civ sinât that OP as some wnath them to be, plus at High levels they are weaker.
Srry but Cysion disagree with you, the directly said that they want all civs at 45%-55% winrate across ALL ELO levels, but still consider that if something at High level is broken, is nerfed.
Currently thereâs the double Castle WW taking the empty left by Arambai nerf. Nicov drectly said that if any strat that needs very little execution is that succesful and the other player is left with little to no counterplay is broken (Hence why Inca rush was nerfed) still at high level the double castle WW is highky unlikely to be that succesful cuz all pros known situations better.
No, their Bombard Cannons have +25% more attack, is even more effective than Siege Engineers.
Their other options are bad indeed but their Bombard Cannons are among the best in the game.
A little late, but Iâve already thought about this. Itâs a worse Siege Engineers, and they donât get Siege Engineers, making their Onager and regular Scorpion awful. Damage is far less important than range with siege. They only outrange castles by 1, which means theyâre almost impossible to defend against the only buildings where it really matters (Castles). It is a free bonus, which is nice, but the Turks have a better bonus in free Chemistry.
Yeah, burgundian siege is cringe.
But who needs siege if he has flemish revolution? 