I’ve tried experimenting a bit in the beta patch for the April update and I believe the new bonus from the Burgundians (economic techs cost 50% less food) is too strong in combination with the upgrades being available an age earlier.
In particular in team games I feel this civilization is going to be impossibly hard to deal with if used by somebody who knows what he’s doing.
The civilization needs something to be competitive in 1v1 but I feel this buff gives them too much raw power.
At least test it out before we decide if it’s OP or not. In the very late game, they will still be weak. With lack of bloodlines. Team games don’t matter. The game is mostly balanced around 1v1 arabia.
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Don’t call something too early overpowered before it get’s tested at least for a patch long.
If it’s not balanced, the devs will fix it like they did with Tatars and Khmers. We’ll see more Burgundians for a while then at least one patch long.
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I did test it in single player quite a bit just not against humans. Let me just say that the amount of army you can build while grabbing feudal age hand cart/bow saw and while booming 3/4 tc is very scary and the civ can build A LOT of knights/cavaliers while not sacrificing economy at all.
I care more about teamgames than 1v1 but if the civ gets top tier in 1v1 too it’s going to be a very boring couple of months (both players booming in mirror civ, making knights and monks, taking relics with small fights then one resigns because he loses one big fight and the big army of cavaliers/paladins kills everything)
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This is a problem, because it is in fact, not the only map in the whole game.
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How do you balance getting WB and HC in feudal age? That’s 130 seconds of TC idle time, worth about 5 vills.
Having them cheaper is nice but vills numbers usually is prioritized, in fact sometimes even WB is delayed until you have multiple TCs in castle age.
I mean, if you are up against a very aggressive civs that can get such vill leads, you won’t have time for your early eco upgrades to pays themselves back, and you won’t likely neither have much army, because it’s still a lot of food and wood invested in those eco upgrades.
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I agree that this new bonus is really risky, I fully expect Burgundians replacing Franks as the default paladin civ for TGs
But remember that Burgundians were soo bad and ill designed, wait and see…
And remember, they have castle age cavalier and early paladin, but no Bloodlines, If they become too strong a stronger cav civ like Lithuanians perfectly deal well vs them.
There must be balance between 1v1 and Tgs
if its too strong the 50% can always be lowered until its just right.
Curenntl without it the civ is bad, if 50% is op then somewhere in beetwen 0-50% idscunt must be a perfect spot IMO
Yeah I’m just against the raw power of the discount bonus, not against the idea in general.
i think one of bulgundians problems is that they dont have any good FU units with a bonus. like other civs in this sitaution the suck.
Good civs have some unit line they excell at. Like celts have paladins, but bad ones, but it doesnt matter since they got the grea infatry and siege.
burgundians havevt even got FU paladins, and only thing above FU is their handcannons. still they have to use these as they lack other options.
They will allways suffer in wirtares as casual ranked games favour imperial age much moe than tournament play even more for lower elo, my opinion they will always suck, similiar to sizicilians, portuguese, and partially koreans, italians.
if we give them an op early game eco bonus, the winrtares will appear allanced, but truthfully they are borken op for pros than can abus ethe early bonus and still suck for everybody else who plays mostly in imperial age
considering how weak their eco is currently, that’s fine. they are a civ of power spikes by design, if they can’t take advantage of those power spikes, they won’t win, as seen by their current incredibly terrible winrates.
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geo was talking about the economic discount bonus. if 50% discount is too much they could lower it to 33% less food or 25% less food. personally i don’t see it being problematic.
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Oh my bad…
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Wheelbarrow is worth it from 15 farmers onwards, if you want to add more farms. Hand Cart is more efficient than wheelbarrow, usually just further delayed because the upfront cost is too high and you need army immediately.
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how often do you honestly see 15 farmers in feudal age though?
We see at least 15 farmers all the time, expect when someone is going FC.
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but by the time you get to 15 you’re more likely to be wanting to go castle age then getting wheelbarrow, let alone hand cart.
Thats why you get Wheelbarrow before clicking up.
For my own games quite frequently.
For pro games:
HCIV finals game 1 hera clicks up with 13 farmers(+ wheel), jordan with 16 farmers (no wheel),
third game (second was islands) Hera clicks up with 21 farmers (no wheel) Jordan clicks up with 15 farmers (no wheel),
game 4 Hera clicks up with 12 farmers (+ wheel), Jordan clicks up with 17 farmers (no wheel),
game 5 Hera clicks up with 20 farmers (no wheel) and Jordan with 12 farmers (+ wheel). So basically every game with at least 18 farmers, wheelbarrow should have been researched instead (maybe there were other reasons not to do it, but it would have been economically efficient).
So in the HCIV finals wheelbarrow was picked up three (out of 10) times before castle age and it would have been efficient another two times.
And in at least two of those games (20+ farms) hand cart could have been worth it too.
Not making a statement if the new burgundian bonus is op or not, although it certainly seems very strong, but I would say that there definitely are situations, where feudal age hand cart is an option.
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It’s because they are an age earlier. To make them viable an age earlier they need to be discounted.
I also made some tests with it and for me it never looked overpowered. The thing is that the techs still need an investment. For example getting bow saw and heavy plow in feudal you need to invest +50 F and 225 W. This would be paid back in 5 minutes with 10 lumberjacks and 14 farms. Until that the burgundian player has no advantage at all (besides a little bit more wood for the earlier first wood upgrade).
In comparison vikings and chinese have their advantage initially and doesn’t have to pay for it.
I tried to make it work with burgundians, but it doesn’t looked overwhealming so I made the maths and saw, that it only looks nice on paper for dark and feudal age. The real power it can just develop in castle age cause your opponent has either close the tech gap and pay more for it or leave it and allow you to have a stronger eco. Then it can come into play.
The worst thing oppoents could try to make an feudal all in vs burgs though, this would play into their hands. But everything else looks quite nicely balanced for that eco bonus now.
And IF an enemy would do this, this would just be a misplay like all-in vs chinese or vikings, so you can’t blame the civ design for a misplay like this.
I like that design.
What I don’t like are the other changes to increase food and gold income from relics and farms. They should have adressed flemish revolution instead.
Not really. HC is not a good eco upgrade for it’s cost cause your vills carry so much more. Getting it too early can even massively hurt the eco just because after getting it you have basically no res income for some time. This can massively hurt the eco.
Even with burgs you shouldn’t get hand cart much earlier than normally.
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