Cataphracts are not actually that powerful in practice which is why this thread was created.
The Knight as a unit is extremely strong in early Castle Age, if it wasn’t part of the game yet most people would hate the idea of them being added because they are so OP.
The stats of the none Elite version might need some adjustments though, especially if they are available to Armenia too.
Maybe similarly to the Condoteri they should receive bonus damage from none Infantry units like Camels for example. So they are not immune to almost all anti cavalry attacks besides Heavy Camel Riders.
So basically Camels (including Flaming Camels and Mameluks) and Genoese Crossbowman would still do their full bonus damage vs. Cataphracts.
I feel like that was something they would have wanted to do in the first place but were technically not able to. Like Camels having Ship armour class originally.
big, huge, enormous NO. Cataphracts is the reason many age of king players and on, fell in love with Byzantines. Taking their unique unit and sharing it with other civs will devaluate them big time and they will lose on major part of their uniqueness.
It like sharing the Teutonic Knight with other civs. Exactly the same concept.
The Armenians used the same kind of cavalry as the Byzantines did, they were neighbours after all.
I don’t think AoK/AoC things should be put on a pedestal where they are not allowed to be touched at all. Cataphracts in particular got more visual changes then most old UUs already.
Armenians and West Rome both could be considered as being split of the Byzantines in some ways.
A regional unit can also be more civilisation defining then unique units.
The Eagle Warrior is certainly more defining for it’s civilisations then the Unique Units they have.
I also think Cataphracts are not the only AoK UU that has good potential to become a regional unit instead.
Armenians and Byzantines were indeed close. But there have been not a few times that they were hostile to each other. I see no reason to share any unit between them.
Imo, Age of Kings catas look almost identical to the newer versions, I was very pleased that devs did a great job on that.
If you want a regional cavalry unit to replace the knight line, my choice would be the old Savar skin. Looks like a Persian/Parthian/Byzantine(in a lesser degree) Cataphract. It could be a regional unit for middle east civs and maybe Byz and Armenians also. For me this ‘‘old Savar’’ looks historically correct and will fit cosmetically in eastern civs.
But since Byzantines and Persians now have a cavalry UU adding a new regional line that spans from Byzantines to Persians can’t really be added anymore.
Also what is the Knight like going to represent for the Byzantines?
Also an issue some other civilisations have like Britons with their super long range Crossbows.
If catapracts are going to be a regional unit im pretty sure it can be given to romans bulgarians cumans and tatars even if we leave out persians who should ideally get them.
Also, much more technically, Cataphract can’t be shared (regional unit) because it is designed to fit the balance of the Byzantines civ (role unit to hard-counter specific unit type). The Greek origin of the name can also be a minor inconsistency, as unit of other civs.
This would be something everyone can agree on. An additional, anti-something, Fireship of the land UU, the Cheirosiphon. It wouldn’t be fun to rival/overshadow other defensive units tho, like the Mangonel or the Bombard. It should have its own role/value.
I always wondered why devs aren’t using this model for the Savars, then I realised Knight line always use swords instead of spears.
So this is my idea, Cataphracts model could be use for a new UU for Byzantines Knight line called Latinikon which is basically Norman Knights with Byzantine armor. While the Savar model could be use for the Cataphracts or Clibanarii if you want it to sound more Byzantine.
Latinikon from Medieval Total War: Stainless Steel Mod
I only suggested the Armenians because they use the same kinda Cataphracts and the Christian iconography on them is not out of place.
But should “foreign” troops be easier to get, easier to mass and generally more useful then their own units?
I know they wouldn’t fit for most civs balance wise, including Armenians but Armenians feel very wrong currently.
Maybe there is a better way to make them feel more like they should.
It would not be like a Mangonel and especially not like a Bombard because they wouldn’t have the range.
More comparable to a Ram, which this unit replaces in AoE4.
It could be an alternative to the Ram line that is very good against other siege and somewhat useful vs. units. but not as good vs. Stone Defence and not immune to arrows.
With just 1 melee attack and a Fire Ship like rate of fire they would already be perfect Ram killers.
So you want to replace the old Cataphract model from the game?
One idea would be to just rename the Byzantine Cataphract and add a new generic/regional Cataphract unit. But Cataphract is already a Greek word.
Same for units like Throwing Axeman, Slinger and Composite Bowman have way to generic names for a unique unit too.
No, I want to reuse it for Byz Cavalier replacement & called it Latinikon.
The true Cataphracts meanwhile will use the old Savar model instead, with a few tweaks like replacing the shield pattern with that of Chi Rho.
I think that Latinikon is just light cavalry, if I am not mistaken. I can’t see them as a unique Byzantine unit. I mean Latinikon soldiers weren’t even Byzantines. Mostly mercenaries Latins(hence the name) and Normans as you already pointed out etc.
Cataphracts or Clibanarii are interchangeable words I think. Both Greek words to describe the ultra heavy cavalry.
They’re certainly not Light Cavalry since the Normans are known for their heavy cavalry & the ones that introduced the new tactic on how heavy cavalry can charge effectively. Why I chose Latinikon as the knight line replacement is because Latinikons are knights, they’re just equipped with Roman equipment & Romanised during their services.
Alexios was undoubtedly a good tactician, but he was badly let down by the undisciplined rush to pursue the beaten enemy wings, a cardinal sin in the Byzantine tactical manuals. He failed to take adequate account of the effectiveness of the Norman heavy cavalry charge, which punched through his lines with little resistance."
A quote from John Haldon’s “Byzantine Wars”
The reason why I chose to not replace the Cataphracts as UU is because historically they’re indeed a rare sight & very much top of the line in the Byzantine army. That’s why I opted to improve their flexibility in battle instead by adding range attacks. That way it also reflects the civ personality of flexibility & adaptibility.
