Byzantine Cataphracts

How often are cataphracts used? Spirit of the law did a breakdown on them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdUGRji7vg

But a point he made is that cataphracts are not made that much. The meta favors knights and xbows, and cataphracts trade equal to knights, and are at a disadvantage to xbows compared to knights.

So, here is a thought. What if cataphracts had their bonus damage expanded to include not only infantry, but also siege units? This would make small 4-6 man groups of cataphracts trebuchet killers, since the normal counters to cavalry charges dont work on them. This combines well with the byzantine defensive orientation as well, since killing siege is something you want to do if your under siege.

I don’t think this would be necessary… Cataphracts are already good killing siege, plus, Byzantines already have cannons with cheap pikes, and cheaper imperial age, and over all that, more HP in buildings.

If cataphracts are underused is because its niche objective is underused too… Infantry.
Buff infantry (specially militia-line), merge Logistica with the Elite upgrade and then you’ll see cataphracts very often, imo.

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Maybe make Logistica available for Knight line or make Cataphracts able to use bows, just like the Armenian Ayrudzi from Romae ad Bellum mod?

That would make Knights eat pikes for breakfast, unless toned down

Knights already eat pikes for breakfast generally speaking, but with Byzantines knight line being so weak, at least it gives them a unique edge & gives people incentives to pay the expensive upgrade Logistica. You could tone down the knight’s aoe trample, but then we’re talking numbers & I’m not quite versed on those.

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If pikes slowed cavalry when they stuck them, this would be different.

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How would you buff militia line? Pure stats? Or something else?

Halbs will be still cost effective against byz cavalier.

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I don’t think slow them, but surely the size of Collision boxes could have a tweaking. Today, cavalry is too slippery. Specially vs pikes imo.
In case of Militia line, some people suggested reduce it to make them more efficient in combst and vs buildings. I think there is room for some experimentation there.

There is a dozen of topics and ideas to buff militia. You can search and give your opinion there.

They should mean the written effect only (the trample damage), not the hidden bonus damage versus infantry. Which can be positive, since it will help the Byzantine Paladin to compete versus blast furnace units.

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Honestly, the byzantine paladin should go. In fact the byzantine cavalier could probably go as well. The byzantine tech tree is very open, and closing the paladins off could tone it down, and open it for expansion elsewhere. That said, I would give my right arm for a byzantine civ with access to both masonry and architecture as well as access to a fire tower, and the ability for monks to heal bombard cannons…

The turtling would be truly legendary.

Are you trolling or what?

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Apparently, his ideal Byzantines should pay for what they essentially get for free now, and he is willing to become copper hand for this :sweat_smile:.

Byzantine Empire was one of the biggest empires of middle ages, and it must have everything available.

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Encouraging aggressive play is way better. Defense through adapting to and countering enemy compositions.

But as others said please stop troll posting like you have an elo we cannot find without a microscope

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Greta would be really pissed off with you. You may have released tons of CO2 with that burn

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The Eastern Roman Paladin is a valued part of the toolkit, even if it is not the shiniest element.

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Alright we’re getting sidetraked here, what if Cataphracts are given ranged attack? It could be a charged ability or you could change stances just like Rathas? If it’s too powerful you could lock the ability behind Logistica, giving it an excuse for its expensive price.

I think the Cataphract should be a regional unit available in the Stable replacing the Knight line for Byzantines and Armenians.
Byzantines keep their UT to buff them and get a new UU that is the land version of the Fireship.
Armenian Cataphracts could get 30HP from their UT since they are missing the last armour upgrade.

But massed Cataphracts are hard to counter for non-cavalry civs. Helping Byz mass up Cataphract sooner is not a good idea imo

Cataphracts as replacement for the Cavalier would be a good idea, but their trample damage needs to go. They would be too broken when theyre massed easily.