Byzantines Buff

Byzantines have the lowest win % of any civ right now according to https://aoestats.io/

They have no eco bonuses.

Byzantium was located in modern day Turkey, a MAJOR trading route. Even more-so before the route around the south of Africa was discovered.

Back in the day they would allow their military to get small and weak during long times of peace. They would then have such a large reserve of gold that they could hire enough mercenaries to create large armies on the spot. Overall it was obviously a loosing strat. However it was a functional strat nonetheless.

Byzantines should be given some sort of trade bonus. Perhaps their market could generate gold automatically just like a Fetoria. Or perhaps it could generate a small amount of gold for each trip of each players trade cart, including your enemies. Theres certianly some historical basis for this.

Discuss.

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The website says that the lowest winrate civ is Korea with 40%, there also civs as Sarracens and Portoguese that are worse.

Also free gold over time for a common building is too much, maybe a bonus like trade ships generate 3x gold

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You know what I did miss that. However they are certianly at the bottom.

Free gold from the market wouldnt need to be a lot. It could be a tiny amount. Anything would end up having an effect on the overall statistics.

The other thing to look at is they were indeed conquered. Perhaps they are most accurate being a loosing civ lol. *tear runs down cheek

Byzantines have the mediterranean architecture set. All the other civs with that set have a bonus or UT related to gold generation (italians and spanish in the market and portuguese in feitoria).

I dont think they need such a bonus but, if it is added, it should be in imperial age.

Maybe more HP to their tradecarts so they are harder to raid?

A buff to trade cars only buff their team games, while you say: Byzantines 1v1 are bad. So you solution wont fix anything. It has no impact at all op their 1v1 win rate.

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byzantines is quite tricky: it’s a defensive civ. most of their bonuses should go in that way. Actually, only the +1 range to fire ship isn’t defensive. The only bonuses i could see are:

  • free stone mining upgrade. But i don’t think it will help them except maybe on arena to pop out a castle faster?

  • one or two free monastery technology. It could be dangerous, they may become the #1 in arena if we give them powerfull free tech there. And if we give them useless tech, it won’t help them. Maybe free atonement? It only helps if the opponent creates monks

  • TCs spawn a new vill upon creation in castle age (2 vills in imp) - it could help fast castle strat in closed map.

In my opinion, they will remain one of the worst civ on open map. But if they could be top 5 in closed map, i could be nice.

This doesn’t mean anything. And i dont think it’s right to dedicate ALL bonuses to keeping that identity.

EZ examples… Korea is a twr civ yet gets siege, wood and archer bonuses. Teutons an infantry civ, get a horde of non infantry bonuses.

Their FU cata is one of the hardest units in the game to counter when massed. I don’t think they necessarily need something that boosts them only in imperial age.

A discount on units IS an eco bonus.

There’s already a large number of byz discussions already. It might help to have a look there instead of starting yet another one?

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Giving Camels 1 extra Melee Armor to compensate the missing Bloodlines. That would be fine.

I think in AoE3 there is Banks for Dutch which generate gold. I felt you wanted something like it.

Yes, historical accuracy is important but balance is important too. I don’t want to see AoE3 things in AoE2 like nonsense Khmer bonus. And Byzantines are balanced, they have strong Castle Age cost bonus. I am not sure about late game and early imp and I didn’t played them a lot (maybe 0 times) so I can’t tell anything. To me, if a civilization doesn’t have full Hussar it’s unplayable.

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They are already compensated for missing bloodlines by getting camels 25% cheaper

That’s not. This civ is supposed to be a defensive civ with cheap units to defend. Without Bloodlines they are not more effective than regular Camel civ.

It’s not true in castle age. In equals ressource, they are arguably the best camel (at least when camel figth camels. source SOL video where indian still has +1/+1 : https://youtu.be/RYarsCH4928?t=145) you get 5 camel for the price of 4. with bloodlines they would be #1 in castle by a huge margin and in imp they would be top3.

buffing byz camel in castle age is a very bad idea.

maybe cheaper monks? Monks are a good defense option against knight. Even if -25% is probably too much…

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That is usually not the use case of camels. You will always see camels to counter Knights. And surviving 3 more hits from Knights make a huge difference. Castle age Berber camels are the best.

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if it was a loosing strat how come its the longest living empire , with twice the longevity of the roman one?

Moreover it was not in modern day turkey.

It was in Greece, turkey, Southern italy, balcans, Egypt ++

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My intention of this topic was to discuss possible Buffs that have a historical basis. Something that Id like to see more of in AOE.

Something with Monks could be the way to go; Byzantium was the home of the Orthodox Church. They do have the healing bonus already… Going further down the Monk route could be ok.

A slight addition to thier building HP bonus would be the most simple method to buff.

Because they were conquored and no longer exist. Almost their entire time in existence they were slowy loosing territory.

It was infact in Modern day Turkey. And a lot of other places too like you mentioned. The reason I focused that sentence on Turkey was because of the trade importance of the region & because I was pitching the idea of a market/trade buff. Yes Egypt had heavy trade importance too, but they lost Egypt around 200 years into their sole existance (fall of the west)

The 25% discount does a great job to represent how they were able to summon large armies of mercenaries when needed, no doubt. And the weakness of those units (no unique bonuses on strength) could go to show how mercenaries weren’t as dedicated to the battle as a national professional army. So there is some excellent historical basis there. Maybe bump that up to a 30% discount, or maybe increase production speed (IRL: mercenaries hired on the spot vs being trained)

They also hired a lot of Nordic mercenaries, so perhaps being able to create Beserks at a cost of only gold could represent that. However micromanaging a higher # of unit types is unlikely to make the civ achieve a higher win ratio.

What really stands out to me is that Byzantium is credited with the Invention of the Trebuchet and yet they have no treb bonus. Thats the most weird part. Secondly they also invented Fire Ships. So historically it could be represented as Byzantines being the only civ that can make them in Feudal age, but that would be a MAJOR rework of the entire game.

Being that they are a defensive civ and a Treb is an inherently offensive unit, perhaps they could have Trebs that shoot a form of a molotov cocktail and benefit from ballistics? This could represent how trebs could have been used from within walls to attack a seiging army. Or maybe no ballistics but the fireballs have an area effect.

Their version of Greek Fire was the only one that operated like a flamethrower. All other civs irl had “greek fire” which was really medieval slang for molotov cocktail varients. Maybe make the other civs have a different form of fire ships? Or allow Byzantines to build Fire Towers from the campagins in online play? Though to tell you all the truth I have no idea if Fire Towers were ever a real thing.

They have the best Camels in Castle Age, lol.

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Hello, fellow agers!
Let’s look at some stats from the same site, as the first forum member quoted https://aoestats.io/civ/Byzantines/RM_1v1.
We have here:
111
222
333
The Byzantines, as far as I can remember, didn’t get any specific changes. It seems to me, that they just started loosing steam to the rest of the nations, simply because they didn’t have a solid early start. The same could have been said about the Goths, who rose to prominence after they received a simple free loom! The earlier a civilization gets a bonus, the higher its survival chances are. And the Byzantines are late bloomers by nature. Very string late game, but very hard beginning, which I like.
However, I would suggest to use their history as a starting point and give them the following bonus: let a large area around them discovered as soon as the game starts. Since they are just a second iteration of the Roman Empire, the world was already “discovered” for them and everything was already conquered. This bonus could enable them to get all the sheep and boars early. Also, plan faster where to put their tall, magnificent, beautiful walls! :wink:
Who knows, maybe increasing the discovered perimeter with aging, could also be a good idea.
I prefer to have a bonus that is out of the box to give them more personality. Please, share your thoughts on that and how big do you consider the revealed area could be.

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I think thats a great idea. IRL the most explored areas would of been coastlines and routes to other groups of peoples, not counting nomadic peoples though. So a direct path to Tartars, Huns, Mongols, and Turks (before caslte age) not being visible would make sense historically.

Only problem will be that this will somewhat copy the Vietnamese bonus of revealing your enemies positions. Probably the bonus could be twitched to something more useful and peculiar, like having every coastline revealed or as you said, having a path towards the enemies. I don’t know, I just want to see something out of the box to spice up the game.

I would make that area big enough to see the four sheep and maybe boars/berries but not further resources (mainly the other sheeps and deer).

Another option would be to reveal the starting position of boars exclusively (but boars still can leave that position).

This alliviates the task of initial scouting but, still, scout and sheeps should explore a bit before going for the enemy area.

Alsnother interesting consequence regarding eco is that the scout may afford to push one or two deer if they find them earlier instead of scouting the area (i do this with vietnamese a lot).

Additionally, this fits their free town patrol bonus.

Byzantines with this bonus would became an even greater ally for Vietnamese:

  • Vietnamese marks the starting enemy position so byzantine scouts can try to lure the deer instead of exploring, as I said above.
  • Byzantines get imperial skirmisher
  • Byzantine team bonus allow Vietnamese monks to heal tanky elephants faster if needed
  • Paper money may help a bit to get cataphract upgrades in late game.
  • Byzantines can make strong walls for Vietnamese player, who lacks masonry and architecture…