Byzantines Buff

I forego walls - the advantage of being defensive is gained if the enemy tries to attack in feudal or castle age in any way even if those units are made and never attack me until he/she feels ready. In castle age the castle itself may be delayed as long as the town centers are in the cluster right around where the castle will go anyways - from dark age an end result before going feudal may be 10 vills on wood, 13 on food, 5-6 on stone, horse collar comes after the initial farms are generally almost used up and the farm villagers before reseeding will build the town centers and the castle if needed or prudent. Farm upgrades will be researched right before they become needed - the woodsmen will have had a consistent stream of wood for the most part, and in feudal the first research for faster stone mining will be researched with a backlog of stone in place - once the stone is where it needs to be for however much I intend to build the stone vills may go straight to assist in any other research that might be needed, including wood - castle age would normally be upped by 35-36 villagers with 15 wood, 15 food, 5-6 stone and once you hit castle age the race is on to create 30-50 farms, and then switch to wood and once wood is in a decent spot keep spamming towards wood and take those villagers on wood to the remaining stone and gold piles - up to this point you will sell wood and food for any initial gold expenses that you might want to incur and helps deflate how much the enemy might gain from the market early on, from this will be early armor upgrades and 2 monks and so on as well as to pay for the cost to age up while your economy grows quickly with a sturdy foundation. Shortly you’ll be keeping up with your initial military needs and you’ll want to quickly gain as many relics as possible. You can forego armor upgrades on the scouts if their main use will be only for relics but armor if you intend to find a raid opening. In castle age the first parts of the army that costs gold may be paid for in initial wood and food excess.

The intial army will be mangonels, knights, monks, Teutonic knights, in that order with knights and mangonels switching for what comes first depending on enemy composition. While getting to 5 monks will happen at the same time. In early castle you may build up to 40 knights if prudent, but they must be healed in a consistent wheel of attack and heals with one group making the attack run and the other healing or both near the healing fortress and attacking/defending while being healed and assisted by the teutonic knight formation in case any pikes appear. to make the most of them and try not to build anymore until the rest of the army has its sturdy foundation as well - upgrade to cavaliers - onagers - palladins - elite tuetonic knights - bombard canons when you hit imp in that order so that everything will strengthen in a good order. When you hit imp get 3 bombard canons asap for defense to snipe trebs if needed.
Imperial should be upped near the 30-35 mark with the 40th minute being the longest you should stall it in most occasions.

This may be adjusted so that feudal is hit by the 21st-24th villager or so for a faster defense in feudal.

In castle age it is preferrable to get the two wheel upgrades from the tc as soon as one is able to without slowing the boom.

I invite the enemy into my base on purpose.
If I wall it’s in very small limited amounts, such as two single piece stone walls per mining camp or a small enclosure with already needed buildings for the woodline.

Picking off raiding units with mangonels while protected by tcs and a castle has its quircks. The next level of that defense being onagers and bombard canons while the offense does its job with little care for eco defense.

Increase to 10 monks before or soon after imp depending on healing needs. Bring to the front lines if prudent.

As the initial farm villagers finish their first farms they’ll be switched to building the base to gather wood depending on needs to increase the boom’s effectiveness meanwhile the farm upgrades will be ready for them before reseeding/seeding.

The first castle and towers may be in range of other important resources while covering the
Farms(castle) and the second castle may be quickly built to cover anything you might still need to and build a tc right next to it for any remaining needed farms if wanted.

what would be faster/more efficient, the first three vills build two houses and chop the two closest straggler trees initial health and then quickly get in sheep by the 5th villager or as quickly as one can get the first mutton under the tc and then the 7th-11th villagers (4) finish it off, garrison quickly and pop out on the second tree to quickly chop it and once finished or close to immidiately task to the lumber camp and garrison and ungarrison if that lessens the walk time or just sending the 7th straight to the lumber line.

I think cataphracts would be fine if the upgrades were to be cheaper. I do not think that the cost reduction of the previous patch was enough. Stat wise they are a good unit (aside how they get completely wrecked by samurais, even though they are infantry
), they are just very expensive to produce on top of being very expensive to upgrade on top of being produced only by castles
you get the idea, too many downsides.

I would try to lower the cost of the elite upgrade to 1000f 600g and leave logistica with the current cost, just to make the unit a bit easier to tech into.

Also give byzantines town patrol, seriously.

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See, there is the problem with you: You write stuff that is contradictory or simply impossible. A short collection:

I forego walls

Without walls nor units, you die to even just 3-4 archers. Its just not possible to survive. You talk about superior defense but dont even intend to wall.

But you said you go to feudal rather early, so you have max 22 vills. You cant have 29 at the same time


Well, but earlier you said you go for Monks+castle, while also getting some scs out. Buildings cost ressources. You cant get everything at once.

40 kts? In early Castle? After spamming towers, rushing out a castle and without even mining gold? Again, not even close to possible.

So, what is it now? Rushing out BBC? or paladins? Again, stuff costs ressources. You cant afford everything just because you want it.

Raiding units are usually Kts/hussar. Mangos cant kill those. And onagers/BBC are even worse.

Again, completly impossible. You cant go heavy tower defense into monk/scs into tk/kts and boom on 4 TC and still git imp on min 30. You either dont boom or you imp later.

So, at first I thought your build was just bad. Now i know it doesnt even exist.

I think that you’ll be fairly surprised.
Also remember, the latest I put one could wait to up to imp is the 40 mark, the reason for that is if excessive military is made for whatever reason there may be.

Bbc as soon as possible, as soon as research allows but starting with what you can in the meantime.

Market trading will allow the initial start up, the gold mines will keep up the military production where the markets leave off.

Villagers will be generally safe from knight/hussar raids.

The castle up time, regardless of feudal up time will remain around the 35-36 mark.

The feudal uptime at around 22 vills would be
10 food, 8 wood, 4 stone and upped to 15 wood, 15 food, 5-6 stone in feudal. Roughly, can be adjusted depending on resource differences, and the sooner the stone miners reach their quota they can of course be sent to wood/food/building/etc
Depending on the situation, 2 towers would be the minimum, 4 would be the maximum (in this situation, 2 on woodline, 2 on stone line in harsh conditions) a 5th only in the harshest with the last on gold if you intend to mine gold at the start with a different build order at the start.

Also remember that the build orders are in rough draft, they’re currently guidelines rather than actual rules.

Samurai beat Cataphract? How

I believe me, i am already surprised! I mean, i did expect a lot, but

just blew all expectations 11

On a more serious note: You dont have to pretend that your build actually exists. There is no one here you could impress! Just keep playing the game the way you like it. And a serious tip if you ever intend to play more competitivly: Copy builds of pros, and use that as a starting point. If you want to create something on your own, try optimizing your build in matches vs an easy AI. Try to hit certain benchmarks you know from known builds and if you cant surpass them, go back. If you ever find yourself having more than 400 ressources of one type (unless just before aging up, ofc), go back. That way you might actually arrive at a build that does exist, and isn’t just fantasy numbers written in a forum post.

And now lets stop the OT and actually let the people who have good ideas about how to buff the byz talk.

you need like 2 samurai for each cataphract.
and it’s because samurai bonus damage targets unique unit armor class, not cavalry armor class. so a fully upgraded elite samurai does 12+4 base - 2+3 base armor (11 damage) + 12 bonus damage - 0 bonus damage resistance for a total of 23 damage a swing. and they attack insanely fast.

Do these farms look very raidable to you without siege? Adding in the army in general and yeah, no. The villagers are generally safe from knight/hussar raids cause they would be forced to stay on the outlines or be mauled rushing in.

Woodlines are a different story and takes some care to ensure their safety, depends on each situation and how you feel is best at each woodline.

Of course, I would just spam a ton of hussars/light cav and what do I care if they die, they are cheap and I’ll simply keep spamming more


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I know that but Cataphracts have their own bonus vs samurais (+12) and they have Logistica (+6) to help in mass fights Also have nearly double HP of samurais. So in total they do 12(base)+12(vs infantry)+2(blacksmith)+6(Logistica)=32 - 5(samurai melee arm)=28 damage per swing.

Yeah Catas lose in 1v2 fights but in higher numbers(15v30) they’re starting to win some fights according to editor.

yes, it’s easily raidable

its also entirely unrealistic, no high level game will have enough time for you to sim city to such a level. it looks neat on paper, but not practical. also that’s a hell of a lot of resources and you can be raided before you even get to that point. you’re looking at 5 tc, 2 castles, and at least 3 towers.

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They aren’t built all at once, like the army each piece is assembled at a pace that best suits the situation of the game.

To note, the boom and build order and general information to get there is in the rough which is why my guidelines to get their are moreso ranges rather than solid by the numbers timing and vill counts atm, if it seems that way I apologize. The boom itself is very changable based on the playstyle of the user, a raiding focus is allowed and it doesn’t have to be fully defensive.

My eco defense is what I like to use and helps me in-game, and I feel that at some points players might make great use of them, but they are optional as well based on how each player plays.

The strategy I am most emphasizing is the endgame, I only say vaguely how I get there personally but at the same time that is taken as the strategy ‘not existing’ cause my own take on it is within ranges and changes from game to game and I do not have a solid rule yet.

All I can say towards my boom is that I have an idea of what I want out of it, but my current knowledge holds me back from making the most out of it and setting a solid foundation for a proper presentation to represent the build from the ground up rather than just mainly the end result. Anyone with better knowledge of build orders might be able to help set it up with me, and that would be appreciated, else I’ll just have to figure it out over time so I can finally showcase a finished product.

Listen, you want to keep working and discussing on your build, it’s ok, but there are 2 things:

  • first: don’t suggest balance changes on non-meta strategies. When this, if and will become meta, then we’ll talk about it.

  • second: this is getting out of topic too much, the topic should be about potential bizzantines buff, not about your build order and fortress strategy. So please if you want to keep discussing about it do it the appropriate topic.

i can’t say I’m suggesting balance changes over my strategies. Sure I suggest things that will help me overall, but it’s within reason of the civ itself.

+1 pierce armor to byzantine cataphracts is my suggestion that will help them survive grazing arrow fire and they’ll still die before palladins which are already weak to focus fire anyways and much moreso the cataphracts.

Yes this will also in turn help me help them stay alive by having the teuton’s healing fortress nearby with the boosted healing speed and range to assist in their survival by them having more ability to tank a little more damage.

The source of it is out of want for the having of cataphracts to be more worth healing.
And this accomplishes that not only for my own personal gain but also for the byzantines themselves in any gamemode.

Even If they lose heresy for it I’d consider it a good change.

No, they won’t, trust me. Tcs will be built on different res sincd there’s no point in making farming tcs.

Which is still extremely bad

I think this is the problem: your scarce knowledge of the game isn’t holding your build back. Your knowledge of the game is what mad you think this build is somewhat viable.
Trust, not even with Viper’s skill you would pull out a decent build order out of this

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My knowledge is decent enough that I can do well enough building it in a regular game often enough. 2k+ hours on it was not for nothing.
I refer only to knowledge in raiding early and consistent build orders that most ensure consistency.

But, again, they aren’t a unit who are supposed to be good vs archers. Paladins are good vs archers and weak vs pikes, catas are weak vs archers and good vs pike. The moment when either the paladins or the catas are good vs both things is the moment when they aren’t balanced anymore.

You are still backing your suggestions with your strategies.

Reducing their weaknesses to archers is a buff, but removing heresy isn’t a nerf at all.
You claim that you can simply use monks even in late games, but that’s not what happens in most cases.

So basically you are exchanging a buff for an not-equal in size nerf, so a pure buff in the end.

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As for heresy it also has the reverse effect of having them permanently convertable.

And yes I come from my own strategies, or rather I should just say in my own experience.
I would attempt to convert a minimun of 20 cataphracts and then use them against the enemy while keeping them well healed to provide myself with another counter to a threat other than nearby arrow fire while continuing to convert more as any are lost.