i’d suggest byzantines get some form of minor early eco bonus to help them. not a long term bonus - just something to give them a little edge.
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all this discussion for nothing… because I’m also saying this 
(that we don’t need late-game buff for the civ, only early buff)
So a civ now have to have a scout bonus? If their feudal is fine why buffing their late game, when their bonuses becomes even stronger?
Statistically speaking it doesn’t matter.
You’ll never have balanced or similar percentages because there will always be errors in the measurement. So you set a range and every value that is inside that range is considered the same, even if it make it by a tiny little bit.
And byzz have other things. If you are careful, you wall, and train only the units that you need to and avoid over committing you can be on the same level of other civs.
If you have over committed, then you can use your trash army to try to push the enemy base. You have options.
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What about a military one? Like 10% hp or 5% attack for all land units or similiar
how does that help them boom?
and yet other civs get bonuses that make their military more effective, an eco bonus to afford those military units with, and can get their faster then byzantines.
I guess we are not uderstaning each other. I said that I am not favorable to extend the discount to scouts. Even if it would not be OP since their scouts miss bloodlines and have no other bonus. Just this.
by the way - if you truly believe this is acceptable, why do you keep asking for italians to be buffed? they’ve been above 45% winrate since patch 39515 at least. which was last july…
HP bonus is a bit hard to figure out. If you have a bit more HP but still die in the same amount of hits, then the bonus isn’t very useful, but if you end up giving way too much HP to all units, then you’re gonna have an OP civ. It’s probably better to give them some buff that can save them some villager time and/or resources in dark age.
It does not, but it helps to mitigate this
Otherwise we should figure out an early eco bonus
does it? it gives archers and skirms a whole extra 3 hp. how much is that honestly going to help?
it gives spears, man at arms and scouts a whole 4 extra hp.
again how much is that going to honestly help?
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Depending on the armor, it may allow you to survive one more hit. The effect would be much better for knights, and, if applied, for siege.
A small attack speed bonus might be better however
Isn’t their early eco bonus more building HP, meaning you can protect your base better and have good eco behind it? It’s nothing compared to Mayans or Lithuanians for example but I believe Byz are fine
If they are fine explain the bad winrate and even the low tournament usage?
How about this one?
I think it goes very well with them. Extra food, wood is always good to have at start.
Extra gold means they can do a no gold drush or decent m@ → archers. I don’t think the ability to do a no gold Drush is too OP or something. 2 out of other 3 (Goths, Aztecs and Portuguese) are below average. And Aztecs is strong not necessarily for this bonus. Also it is half of Aztecs (50 vs 25).
Extra stone goes very very well with their theme. You can put a tower and still make a TC but not enough to put 2 towers. So it is decent imo.
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Aren’t they seen in almost every four lakes/cross game and frequently seen in other hybrid type maps? Also they are a really good arena civ. They struggle on open maps because they are slow, just like Spanish or Cumans, but once you get going it is really hard to stop a Byzantine player. The problem is the game ends before we get to their strengths (on open land maps).
Ok, first, I’m not against small tweaks for the byz, I even suggested some of them.
- giving them TP for free
- give them PT
- reduce the cost of elite/logistica for catas.
I’m just against giving them crazy new bonuses, or BL, but if someone can suggests others that aren’t big I’ll listen of course.
I’m not saying that byz are perfect, I’m disagreeing that they need a big change.
Second, italians aren’t in the 45-55% (I’m using only the arabia stats, to avoid that some maps were a civ is particulary good bias the overall percentage, otherwise even byx winrate would be higher) they are at 44.38. I know it may sound silly, but it’s simply how it works…
I’m the first to not trust completely such data, because I think that the picture is bigger, and we should consider qualitative data too, but then sometimes people trust only numbers so…
Third, the only change for italians that I’m pushing since the last update if to give them SE, accordigliy with the fact that they aren’t that far anymore from the “balanced range”. I would’t dislike other changes, but I don’t think that are neccerarily either.
Ok, maybe I missunderstood, but then why you are suggesting to give them BL? Or to justify a potential buff for them by argumenting that their scout rush aren’t good?
I will repeat:
- Houses cost 10 wood - nice little buff in DA, buff to deffensive play, buff to booming in Castle, almost no impact in Imperial.
Yeah sorry I missed that one…
I don’t like it honestly… but again honestly I don’t think it would make them broken…
It would allow for them to wall and turtle in with cheaper and tankier houses…
One really minor eco bonus that was suggested before is starting the match with some tiles arrount their TC explored… It should be more tiles than chinese extra TC. I mean a huge ammount of tiles, enough to see the boars and help to decide if the map is wallable or not.
The time you save for scouting can be used to lure deer (or lame, cof, cof).
Of course, the explored area still remains in fog of war. Free Town guard (and town patrol) would still be useful
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