Byzantines late game buff

A simple one. Reason: they suck in post imperial team games. In post imperial 1vs1 (RM), Paladin won’t be seen.

Logisitca: affects Knight line too

Total effect of Logistica:

  1. Cataphracts and Knights deal 5 pure damage to adjacent units in 0.5 tile radius
  2. Cataphracts +6 attack vs infantry (already there since 2000)
  3. Knights +4 attack vs archers

I am failing to follow here. Byz aren’t a civ i like or play. Are you suggesting this is what logisitca should do?

Sounds like too much… how do you stop them if you don’t have Bloodlines Paladins?

Wrong. Byzantine cataphracts murder infantry. Their cheap trash units help them in low gold wars. They have good foot archers.

Maybe buff them some other way. Your suggestion takes away what made the cataphract an unique unit.

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It’s almost like byzantines are a team game flank civ with arbs as there go to.

Btw this disagrees with you.

the longer the game goes the better they get.

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I thought you didn’t believe in stats!

I dont believe in them alone but nothing I have ever seen leads me to believe Byzantines are a bad late game team game civ. If your argument is seriously because there paladins then we have something like 30 civs that need buffs.

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Paladins with trample damage will be way more frightening than Lithuanians with 4 relics despite not having BL.

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I have no idea if they would or not. After all they do lack both blast furnace and bloodlines, and the Byzantine player would spend a lot of time with worse cav than the enemy.

Why? Byzantines were always considered a good post imp civ.

Hussars, cheaper halbs and skirms, paladins, BBC, FU arbs, onagers, SR, the tankiest castles in the game…

There isn’t a thing that they can’t do, and their cataphracts ones you get them going can shred everything to pieces.

They may lack BF and BL on their knight line, but onestly, paladins is often a better unit, even if not FU, than generic cavaliers.

Compare them to Italians cavaliers for example, that are considered decent and generic. Byzantine paladins will have the same attack of italians cavaliers, and 20 more HP, so they’ll beat them. They’ll also have 1 PA more, making them way better vs archers.

Yeah the price of the paladin upgrade is high, but if you are in a TG with trade it’s not a problem.

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All of this is good but due to the way teamgames work most of those strenght aren’t as useful as in 1v1. And let’s be real nowadays “better than cavalier” isn’t enough since the enemy pocket(s) will be either Khmer/Indian or a paladin civ.

Now I don’t feel like making logistica affect knight line is needed at all, but out of curiosity it could be interesting to see whether it would feel like a good idea. Does it make up for having worse knights than your opponent for most of the game? Is it fair enough that you have an upside compared to normal paladins but without stomping everything either?

What is their value in combat?

35 civs have this. So how do you classify?

Only against siege and archers. Not cavalry and infantry.

Or Persians with both Elephants and Paladins.

SotL in his all techs video confirmed that generic Cataphracts in groups are stronger than Byzantine Cataphracts in groups, so maybe it can be balanced.

I am surprised no one has said anything about the +4 against archers.

How often do you make (non Hussar) trash units in team games - Imperial Skirmishers, Elite Genitours Halberdiers?

Cheaper camels can be a play, but Berbers would be better at that.

Byzantine Arbalesters are nothing special. They are just fully upgradeable. The effect of cheaper (earlier) Imperial Age wears off when we talk about Paladins, since that comes a bit late unlike Arbalester upgrade.

Italians with cheaper trade carts, cheaper age up and cheaper Gunpowder are far better. Moreover they actually have statistically superior Archers. They also have quite a unique archer unit like the Cataphract (no doubt both units are great).

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And yet the stats say they are fine in the late game.

Good castle is a thing that will always come in handy, no matter what your opponent do.

And how many civs have also BBC, SR, paladins, hussars and FU foot archers with halbs?

That’s the thing, a lot of civs have what byzz have, but none have the same variety and flexibility.

That they cost only food and you can spam them? That’s mainly the only use for the hussar.

When you need an hard counter to what the enemy is doing. And byzz paladins are anyway still really good vs archers.

And that’s fine, a lot of civs rely on generic units and do fine.

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Byzantine Paladins with Logistica wouldn’t make the Cataphract pointless against what it’s good against, but the Paladin itself would be a bit too hard to stop with trample damage cutting down on melee mass efficacy. Paladins are a completely different unit against archers (or anything that does pierce damage for that matter) and even lacking bloodlines and blast furnace this would be a seriously scary paladin.

It’s a little more expensive than the E. Cataphract upgrade, but given the value of easy production out of stables I don’t think it’s a relevantly large enough downside.

Byzantines are fine in very late game. Yes, they dont have very powerfull power units, but if they are able to upgrade all theirs options, they are able to field what is needet, and counter anything enemy has. BUT they need to get there. Late game isnt a problem, early game is. Byz are behind already in Feudal, because they dont have Eco bonus.

While in 1v1 they are able to catch up with their cheaper trash and tanky buildings, in team games being behind on the start will add up, and result is basicly 1player less on Byzantine side. we can even see this in stats - Byz starts to has positive winrate above like 45min, while avarage game lenght is around 35min.

So, adding Byz late game buff would not solve the problem. Early game buff is needet.

And Paladinos with Logistica would be broken AF. Even now Cataphracts can win massive battles against FU Paladinos, thanks to Logistica. If we want to buff their late game, is plenty other thinks what we can do.

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give us free town patrol for the love of god

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And if we want to buff their late game, a nerf to their cheaper advance to Imperial is obligatory.
Or just left Byzantines, a civ that is completely fine (Regularly picked in tournaments, with decent winrate, often seen at ranked, quickplay and even lobby games, quite beginner friendly) untouched?

Except for free Town patrol, that is a must 11

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Aside from free Town Patrol, I would see only one buff for Byzantine Late Game, and this is Heavy Scorpion for them, I dont see reason why they cannot have it, this is deffensive Siege, is uncommon for anyone who isnt Khmer, Celt or Etiopian to push with Scorpions. And Byz still dont have Siege Engineers.

But early game eco buff would be very nice. Yes, civ is picked and played, but for:

  1. Empire Wars mode, when Dark Age is skiped.
  2. Hybrid Maps, where fish helps theirs normaly very slow Dark Age.
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