Byzantines - need they slight change?

Compare with the other uu cavalier, the cost of cataphract looks like a joke now

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I have been saying it, remove Paladin from Byzantines, and halve the cost for Elite Cataphract and Logistica.
Without Paladin, Byzantines would only have Cataphracts as Heavy Cavalry, and a great price reduction on the upgrades would be more than justifiable.

That would be perfect, just one more pierce armor on Elite Cataphracts on top of that though, so players are tempted to go for Elite and they actually perform in battle and Team games.

I disagree, the intention is that Cataphracts still get easily destroyed by Archers, since Byzantines already have cheaper FU Elite Skirmishers to handle those, so they really do not need the Paladin.

Thats good too, then buff their stats in some other way as they are much much weaker right now. I’d say increase their bonus anti-cavalry armor

paladin is for teamgames where skirms are the worst trash units to be used

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I also do not think taht is necessary. Catas are already amazing units, they absolutely crush Halberds and most Melee units you can even think of.
They already perform their brawler function well, and need to have clear counters, such as Archers.

Along with Cheaper halbs, Camels and cheap FU Skirms, Catas as they are now, are the perfect complementary unit. They are just too expensive to upgrade.

Remember that their unit price is costlier than Paladin and every other cavalry now, especially after the Leitis, Tarkan buff!! If you do not want their average stats to change, atleast lets reduce their price to 65F 65G, at the current price , even with half cost upgrades, I don’t think will be enough for the pros to go castles for Catas with Byzantines (which a civ like Byzantines should, they should show off their architecture)

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Cataphract price is alright, the upgrades is what is really expensive.

They actually do perform at their price point. Catas can generally just smash through Melee and tear buildings apart easily.

The only issue with them, is that they are far too expensive to upgrade, not make.

The other day Viper went War Wagons as pocket and told his flank to go full halbs and eagles, the opposite byzantine flank went Catas and destroyed Viper’s flank while Viper was busy dealing with the Huns raiding trade routes. It was a game ending play

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Yup, Catas are fully worth their cost. they can just end games on their own, specially when paired with Byzantine cheap Trash.

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Cataphracts need an upgrade cost reduction for sure. It is even questionable in teamgames, if you can pay that 1600 food just for the elite upgrade and there is still logistica to be researched. Cataphracts should stay weak against archers though.

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That’s the only job for cataphract can do ok, counter infantry.but they still way more expensive to make and upgrade than other cavalry like Leitis and Konnik , and much weaker than them except counter infantry . No matter team game or 1 vs 1, they just too expensive, and even upgrade to elite cata, they still get only one pierce armor.

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Yes, you have already said it and it was clearly observable, that majority did not support your idea, like can be seen from likes on your comment vs my counter-comments (first and second).
You just can’t force player into a situation where he must base his army around castle-trained unit, because castles have too high cost and build time vs normal military production buildings.

I play campaigns and am used to building a lot of military production buildings where needed in order to reinforce my army as quickly as possible. I can easily build stables and train paladins from them, but how am I supposed to do something similar with cataphracts, when castles have approximately 4 times bigger cost and build time, hmm?

It doesn’t matter what statistics you will give to cataphract (unless you make it into a cobra car) or its upgrade time, because it is many times harder to train them than paladins due to depending on castles.

This is general truth for all castle-trained unique units in this game, including cataphracts - they are not suitable as main unit due to depending on castles. Sometimes they are suitable as supportive units. So stop trying to replace paladins with cataphracts, pretending like it is even possible to train them in comparable quantities. And what if player runs out of stone which can easily happen???

If you would suggest to replace knight-line with cataphracts in stables for byzantines, then it would be a different story, where player could actually train them in reasonable quantities.

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They may be worth their cost, but they are excessively hard to mass as they are made in castles. We need to half their Training Time too along with halving their upgrade costs.

Im against removing Paladin. Sure, it is not greatest Paladin, is second worst after Celtic, and probably lose to Celtic Paladin because Celt has -1 meele armour, and Byz has -2 dmg. But this si still Paladin and this mean Byz has better knight-line than 2/3 civs. And you dont have better raiding-and-frontline unit than Paladin. Cata is great but is also more specialized. Paladin is universal and sometimes you need universal unit.
And Cata price is fine, maybe -5G will help, but no more. Of course compare to Keshik and Konnik Cata is expensive, but this not mean he is too expensive, this mean Konnik and Keshik are too cheap.

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Not gonna agree on this tho. Keshiks are cheaper but have overall worse stats, while the Konnik is almost as expensive to upgrade since you need Stirrups + all infantry upgrades.

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Only cavalier upgrade for Konnik is enough to beat cataphract. keshik have 3 pierce armor with the fully upgrade and they actually even cheaper than their cost when they r the fighting, I think they can beat cataphract too. Because cataphract don’t get final attack upgrade and bloodlines.
In my opinion the best way to buff cataphract or Byzantine is give cataphract one pierce armor and let Byzantine have bloodlines . For balancing, cancel their discount of canmel. Change to skirmishers and pikeman line cost -25%in feudal age and -30%in castle age. -35% in imperial age.

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Same goes for the (soon to be scrapped) Bulgarian pala. Anyway you don’t judge whether the a unit is good/bad based on its match up against one unit, but more units. If you have Konniks but with only cavalry upgrades, then they wil suck as soon as they are dismounted, and will die to halbs/camels, and won’t be able to “counter the counter”. In that sense such Konniks would be like Catas without Logistica.

They are cheap, sure, but unlike the other two you can’t throw them a their counters and hope to get an even remotely good engagement.

It could work, but if we just look at stats and their costs, Catas are already worth every single penny. Only the ridiculous upgrade price hold them back. Further balancing the unit or the whole civ should only be considered if lowering the upgrade cost isn’t enough.

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Yep, but unlike Logistica, Blacksmith upgrades are needed for Halbs, and you probably will have them in some point. And Stirrups is cheap. Maybe will be more expensive, since will affect knights. And knights with faster attack scare me.
Konnik basicly is Cataphract without Cataphract weaknesses. Can almost 1v1 FU Pala (is better than Cata in this match), can beat Imperial Camel (!), and like Cata is not afraid of Halbs. Is easier to mass due to faster TT and because of Krepost. Even have better Pierce Armour. And all of this for cheaper price and similar cost of upgrades.
Cost of elite upgrade of Konnik + Infantry upgrades + Stirrups is 2250F 1450G. Plus Bloodlines - 150F 100G and Blast Furnace 275F 225G (Byz dont have this). Summary 2675F 1775G
Cost of Elite Cata + Logistica is 2800F 1400G
Konnik should have price at least equal to Cata.

Keshik, on the other hand, is very cheap. Is cheaper than Teutonic Knight and only slightly more expensive than Samurai/Jag. Sure, is relativly weak (for IA cavalry) but is still cavalry and should have price of cavalry. Is in many ways similar to Tarkan and similar or even identical price will be good for them.

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