Byzantines - need they slight change?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Byzantines - the most medicore civ, they can do everything and in everything they can be relativly good, but in everything they are always behind other civs. Civ without specialization other than counter other civs.
And this is great in this civ, many people say this is civ very good for beginners, but also Pros appreciated them - Viper gave them rank B, but thinks about A in his CivRank.
But they are also practicly not picked in Tournaments (only TatoH pick them), because always is better.

I know for sure, here are many Byzantines fans, like me.
So, can we buff them a little without changing the overall feelig about this civ?

Necessery changes in my, simple noob who likes stats, opinion:

  1. Give them Siege Engineers Tech. This is more defensive tech, than offensive - Treb outrange Castle without this, Treb and SR even without this extra damage are effective, bur this +1 range is really important during trebwars and for BBC defence against Onagers. And is simply no reason why Byz dont have this. Their Siege is allready weak, and almost all civs without SE have something in exchange:
  • Chinese have buffed Scorps
  • Cumans can build rams age erlier
  • Huns have more accurate Trebs
  • Mayans have Siege Archers
  • Goths and Malians have Siege Infantry
  • Turks, Italians and Spanish have buffed BBC (Turk more range, Italian cheaper, Spanish fire faster)
  • Persians have stronger SR, mean, War Elephant
    Only Byz and Lithuanians dont have anything in exchange.
  1. Lower the cost of Cataphract Elite Upgrade. Now is 1600F 800G, and this is second most expensive Elite upgrade, only Elite War Elephant is more expensive. Need change to Something like 1000F 600G - what is exact same as Boyar Elite Upgrade.
    Cataphract should be able to compet with other cavalry UU in terms of cost. And after LKh, it cannot.
  • Leitis has upgrade almost half cheaper, but is also more expensive, so this is good
  • Keshik has really similar stats, and cost almost half and is created much faster
  • Konnik - the most painfull one. Has practicly the same role, is less specialized, cost less, created faster and EK has literaly 190 HP
  • Boyar is created faster.

Cataphract is very strong, but is so expensive to upgrade so is really rare to see.

Optional changes:

  1. Buff Cata stats. But only normal Castle Age Cataphract, not the Elite one. Elite is fine. In CA is litaraly no reason to make Cataphract, exept fighting Indians - is strong vs infantry and camels, and CA is dominated by knights and archers. Of course, Byz can make camels and skirs or archers, but later transition into Cata is very painfull. If Cata will be able to go toe-to-toe with knight, it will be reason to mass them before Imp. +10 HP and 1,73 rate of fire (the same as Elite) should be enough.
  2. Lower the cost of Cataphract, -5G
    Reasons upper.
  3. Slightly Lower Cata TT.
    Reasons upper.

More optional:

  1. Give Byz new UU, created in Barracks after hiting Imp, Varangian Guard
  • 60F 30G
  • TT 24s
  • 75 HP
  • 16 dmg
    Bonus +4 vs cav,
    Trample damage 1 dmg
  • 2/2 armour
  • 2,03 rate of fire
  • 1,05 speed
  • 5 LOS
    And take away Champion upgrade.
    or
    2.Give them new UT in place of Greek Fire. Tech Varangians what gives militia-line +20 HP. Greek Fire effect add as Civ Bonus, after hitting Castle. This will be nice addition to their Infantry (their Champs are now not that great) and will be nice powerup for water, because they will have imidiet powerboost for their Firegaleys after hitting Castle.
    or
  1. Give to the Greek Fire additional effect - defensive structures deal bonus damage vs siege and ships (like +10)
  2. Give them small early eco bonus. Like cheaper houses (15W) maybe?

Crazy ideas:

  • Give them Fire Tower and Flamethrower
  • Give them War Galey upgrade for free
  • Give them cheaper repairs
  • Give them water fortifications.

Of course, necessery ones are important ones. Rest is for fun!

4 Likes
2

I acually like the War Galley upgrade for free, so they can compete with other water civilizations like Japanese or Malay (don’t compare them to Italians or Vikings, those civs are op as ■■■■, need to be nerfed).
The Upgrade cost of cataphracts definitely needs a decrease, I think the community agreed on this on a different post. I think they don’t need more buffs except these, since they’re already a pretty good civ and don’t need to be as good as other land civs.

1 Like
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https://www.ageofempires.com/mods/details/14611/ 2

Here you go man. I’ve balance your UU for you

4

Link is blocked for me.

Byz just need algihlty cheaper elite upgrade and UT for their UU.

This would keep the civs feel exaclty identically (no tech tree inflation) while buffing them in their nuwie way.

3 Likes
5

alongside other unpleasant changes…

6

Please! Give me your feed back. I’m gonna keep working on the mod, trying to balance it as much as I canz with feedback of better players. Probably gonna upload another version today or tomorrow

7

We’ve talked about it, although I don’t know if I’m a better player

1 Like
8

I’m re balancing mongols, so their hunt bonus won’t be touched. Just delaying a little bit their late game death ball. And kamandaran, I’m also doing something about it. Thanks for your feedback!

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9

Have you thought about balancing the Elephant Archers, Organ Guns, War Elephants, Cataphracts and Teutonic Knights?

10

Compare with the other uu cavalier, the cost of cataphract looks like a joke now

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11

I have been saying it, remove Paladin from Byzantines, and halve the cost for Elite Cataphract and Logistica.
Without Paladin, Byzantines would only have Cataphracts as Heavy Cavalry, and a great price reduction on the upgrades would be more than justifiable.

12

That would be perfect, just one more pierce armor on Elite Cataphracts on top of that though, so players are tempted to go for Elite and they actually perform in battle and Team games.

13

I disagree, the intention is that Cataphracts still get easily destroyed by Archers, since Byzantines already have cheaper FU Elite Skirmishers to handle those, so they really do not need the Paladin.

14

Thats good too, then buff their stats in some other way as they are much much weaker right now. I’d say increase their bonus anti-cavalry armor

15

paladin is for teamgames where skirms are the worst trash units to be used

3 Likes
16

I also do not think taht is necessary. Catas are already amazing units, they absolutely crush Halberds and most Melee units you can even think of.
They already perform their brawler function well, and need to have clear counters, such as Archers.

Along with Cheaper halbs, Camels and cheap FU Skirms, Catas as they are now, are the perfect complementary unit. They are just too expensive to upgrade.

17

Remember that their unit price is costlier than Paladin and every other cavalry now, especially after the Leitis, Tarkan buff!! If you do not want their average stats to change, atleast lets reduce their price to 65F 65G, at the current price , even with half cost upgrades, I don’t think will be enough for the pros to go castles for Catas with Byzantines (which a civ like Byzantines should, they should show off their architecture)

1 Like
18

Cataphract price is alright, the upgrades is what is really expensive.

They actually do perform at their price point. Catas can generally just smash through Melee and tear buildings apart easily.

The only issue with them, is that they are far too expensive to upgrade, not make.

19

The other day Viper went War Wagons as pocket and told his flank to go full halbs and eagles, the opposite byzantine flank went Catas and destroyed Viper’s flank while Viper was busy dealing with the Huns raiding trade routes. It was a game ending play

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20

Yup, Catas are fully worth their cost. they can just end games on their own, specially when paired with Byzantine cheap Trash.

2 Likes