The leitis doesn’t counter camels. It loses to them cost effectively. Furthermore while leitis costs less then cataphract, it doesn’t have the cataphracts resistance or attack speed. Different units are different. And yes. If cataphracts got bloodlines they absolutely would need to lose the health difference.
Somewhat counter archers? They have 26 attack vs archers, 1.21 speed and 7 PA. They would require 35 shots to kill. And for byzantines they cost only 68 food and 38 gold. They are better then polish cavalier against archers.
As for them losing to cavalier. Thank God for that
Seeing as this unit will be an absolute monster against anything else it absolutely needs a weakness. And frankly something this strong probably needs a trash weakness.
Game need expensive but strong team game infantry unit similar to Paladin or similar to another unit, thus I imagined this Varagrian Guard unit, I am not saying this unit is balanced, I proposed one unit design without being sure that it will be good. I expect other forumers propose to change this unit or propose another type of infantry unit answer need of team game infantry unit. There are infantry units used in team game but I seek for Paladin-like expensive power unit.
Leitis beat generic Camel. It lose Berbers, Byzantines, Indians Camel cost efficiently but not large margin and also arbalests in the back kill Camels faster than Leitis. I think Camels aren’t problem against Leitis. Leitis (18-22 attack per hit) behave almost like Camel (24 attack per hit) against Heavy Cavalries in addition it has 1 more PA.
In team game, one side has 60++ arbalests, they would give huge damage no matter what Varagrian Guard has 105 hp (they die to arbalest in 35 shots same as generic Cavalier) and 3 PA, and they are defended by Paladins. Paladin has more hp and speed, Paladin is a lot better against archers.
Yeah because so many people make leitis in castle age. Not really. And if he is you should be able to easily overwhelm them with numbers and take insanely effective trades.
Not really. The advantage of infantry is cheaper cost and lack of trash weaknesses. You can’t give them paladin level power because of that.
Yeah except camels are far easier to mass up.
This unit wouldn’t see use in team games with the stats unit gave it. But the problem is while it might be not be problematic in team games where its easy for one side to havr 60 archers, in 1v1 that is far from the case.
According to videos I watched, in total resources, Heavy Camel and Leitis go toe-to-to but Leitis has 1 PA, thus Leitis + Arbalest vs Heavy Camel + Arbalest match up, Leitis has advantage. Cata completely counter Camel but it take huge damage from arbalest behind. Cata is only a little better in Cata + Arbalest vs Heavy Camel vs Arbalest match up. Cata and Leitis isn’t usable in Castle Age both, thus I only compare Imperial Age situation.
Thus, I propose to give low level Paladin power. Same cost (140 vs 135) but less hp and less speed. Vikings Varagrian Guard could be OP, thus I should nerf them in the way that balance Vikings Varagrian Guard.
I admit this is big factor and also I didn’t see Camel vs Leitis battle in team game before. Cata also probably have big trouble in team games I guess. 1 PA against 60++ arbalest is big problem always.
Except heavy camel is cheaper then elite leitis.
Furthermore leitis requires a castle and camels do not.
And yet I see cata in team games more then I see leitis.
With less weaknesses and most the cost is in food which means they are far more gold efficient.
The mere fact that you would need to nerf the rest of the viking civ to make room for this unit just shows how busted it is. And still wouldn’t give it a good weakness regardless.
It’s not about the idea of giving them a buff - but the actual buff you guys suggest, it’s such an uninspired approach, just filling gaps in civ’s tech tree. Developers would never do it, it’d kill diversity this way.
Are you sure? I think Elite Leitis and generic Heavy Camel are equally matched if the Lithuanian player has at least 2 relics, both kill in 7 hits. The camels cost 55f + 60g = 115 total and the Leitis is 70f + 50g = 120. So all resources equal I can see camel having a slight advantage, but if you value gold more than food that reverses. They seem about even in 1v1, with the Leitis having more versatility, but the camel being easier to produce quickly from stables.
lol, “one of the best civ” or do you mean one of the worst civs? because that’s exactly what they are. Their win rate is at the absolute bottom. Byzantine need buff, either through early eco or late game military.
I would say just give them blast furnace and that would be enough. Doing so will let them have Fully upgraded halb for 25% cheaper and fully upgrade champ, even stronger camel for cheaper price, stronger cata and usable hussar + paladins.
Having Bloodline would be overkill because of cataphract and cheaper camel (20hp is always better than +2 attack). And when you have both bloodline and blast furnace, it just make their cata + camel combo unstoppable. Also, having access to fully upgraded paladins while also having access to overpowered cata is kinda insane.
It isn’t true. +2 attack is stronger than +20 hp bloodlines. 25% cheaper FU Halberdier would be best Halberdier in the game. 170 hp Cata would still die to heavy cavarlries in small numbers but +2 attack Cata wouldn’t be countered by Cavalries except 3 melee specialist cavalry, Leitis, Boyar and Elephants. FU Hussar only lacking bloodlines also become too powerful considering Byzantines already have great Halberdier and Skirmisher + FU arbalest. Giving bloodlines with removing Paladin (and giving trample to Cavalier too) is better than giving blast furnace. Byzantines Halberdier is great even without blast furnace.
So tell me why cav civs almost always research bloodlines in early castle age ar the latest but don’t even bother to research rven forging until later on in late castle age? Literally all the evidence we see says 20 hp is better then attack in almost every situation.
This situation is different in very late game. Killing Villager faster with Hussar more important than +20 HP. Halberdier with 6+4 attack will be threat to archer units, villagers and buildings. +2 attack Cata will give 11 attack instead of 9 to heavy cavalries. Camel also will be better against non-cav units. Overall, blast furnace is stronger bonus than +20 HP bloodlines.
I am admitting Bloodlines is stronger bonus considering it also support Byzantines Castle Age as well. I don’t think Bloodlines Hussar will be worse than +2 attack Hussar still (considering it will be worse against majority of units (Skirmisher, Champion, Heavy cavalry) other than Halberdier and Arbalest).
Lacking blast furnace is civ identity of Byzantines. There is a lot of civ lack bloodlines but blast furnace is particular to Byzantines, Vietnamese, Malians and 2-3 civs I don’t remember. I also fear power of Byzantines Halberdier with blast furnace. I think Halberdier is best trash unit in the game together with Hussar. Giving Byzantines best Halberdier in the game could be much considering this civ is already strong civ without this.
7+2 attack give 8 attack per hit. 7+4 give 10 attack. Bloodlines could be better against arbalest but it isn’t better against Skirmisher. I think also killing units faster is also important thing for Hussar.
The first two words are the crux of the issue.
What you think and what is true are two very different things. And the truth is tgat in almost every situation we see high level players favor health and armor over attack.
First of all, purpose of forum is putting forward opinions (+2 attack vs +20 hp is very disputable subject), indisputable facts are in encyclopedias, disputing certain facts is already absurd, thus saying “I think” is true word in this forum, “it is fact” word belong to encyclopedias. Castle age and late imperial Age very different. +20 for Knight is 20% hp but +20 hp for Elite Cata is 13.3% hp. The main thing of Hussar raiding is killing Villagers faster, tanking TCs arrows isn’t main purpose of Hussar because TC in late game give very little damage to every unit. A lot of civs even doesn’t have Bracer (normally TC give 3*7 = 21 damage per shot, without bracer, it give only 2 *7 =14 damage). +2 attack Hussar is better than +20 hp Hussar in Raiding.
Btw, I adimtted already Bloodlines will be stronger bonus for Byzantines considering it strengthen Byzantines Castle Age as well. However, filling Byzantines tech tree which is already left blank in order to balance the game.
But when you’re talking about bloodlines vs +2 attack its quite obvious which comes out ahead. Because bloodlines affects castle age not just imperial age. Heck you could use bloodlines in feudal too but it’s not often used.
Except their is more to the game then just raiding to determine value.
7 civs don’t have bracer. That’s a far cry from your “a lot”.
These 7 civ is important civs in the game I guess:
S Tier: Franks, Cumans.
A Tier: Celts, Slavs, Teutons
B Tier: Malians, Persians
However, Bloodlines is stronger than blast furnace because it is available in Castle Age, thus I took back my initial “blast furnace is stronger than bloodlines” claim 2 comment ago.
I am not sure i agree with your rankings at all. Cumans would be A tier at best in my rankings right now, Teutons Slavs Celts and Malians would be at best a B tier, and Persians would be a D Tier on anything that isn’t a hybrid map.