Calmly summarize my views and opinions on Age of Empires IV and the studio

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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The points I’ve summarized:

  1. Perhaps I believe that Microsoft doesn’t particularly value the Age of Empires IP and RTS games.

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  1. Well… Subjectively, I think Microsoft has issues with its operational decision-making and project management, and these issues have carried over and affected the gaming department. I feel their company structure, staff allocation, and operations are bloated and inefficient.

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  1. Worlds Edge, the Forgotten Empires team, and Relic’s actions regarding Age of Empires show a lot of immaturity. This might be related to internal operational issues at Microsoft. Based on their past behavior, I don’t see a clear and definite operational or development strategy. It’s like building a house without a blueprint—after laying the foundation, the house is built based on preferences, suggestions, and mood, without a fixed house type or shape. There’s constant trial and error: “Let’s try this today, let’s try that tomorrow,” and the cost of these errors is borne by the players. I would rather the Age of Empires team draw up a blueprint. If they lack the ability to make something grand, they should at least be more stable, outlining a relatively clear game development plan and executing it accordingly.

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  1. Regarding variants, if the studio itself had enough creativity, a more active mindset, and a flexible working environment, making variant civilizations could expand the studio’s ideas and understanding of the game, enhancing it. However, if the studio environment is poor and lacks active thinking, creative ideas, understanding, and sensitivity to the game, then variants will only narrow the studio’s thoughts. In subsequent development, they might keep relying on the patchwork approach of modifying and reworking main civilizations to create variants, because these variants are derived from the main civilizations. To make the variants seem more interesting and distinct, they need to diverge from the main civilization, but this could lead to the variants becoming more complex, bloated, and fragmented. This creates a fundamental conflict with the overall game style, pace, and design. Alternatively, they might remove too much and fail to add or adjust enough, leading to shallow and weak variants that are inferior to the main civilizations. If the game doesn’t introduce substantial innovations for the main civilizations, how will they continue developing variants? Where will the creative ideas for these variants come from? At this point, the creation of variants will lean toward the studio’s self-indulgent ideas and more extreme concepts—historical accuracy and unit design might become overly liberal, leading to a breakdown in the game’s structure.

Is this something that could happen? I can’t help but wonder.

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  1. I’m trying not to think too much about Age of Empires IV’s update speed, future plans, and operational direction, because it won’t help. At the current pace, productivity, and direction… I think the player base will become more polarized and extreme. How many are actually playing PvP, how many are playing solo MODs and PvE? I haven’t conducted any statistics, so I’m not sure of the exact proportions, but since Age of Empires IV has opened the MOD community and includes single-player content, it should take responsibility for improving these areas, rather than just throwing it over the wall or ignoring it. If Age of Empires IV ends up with a fixed player base and no other players are willing to stay or join, will the studio just think, “The ones that stayed are the only group worth helping,” and continue developing more extreme features in a single direction?

Or will the studio be certain that Age of Empires IV, with only one fixed playstyle and player base, can still remain vibrant and maintain interest? Without anyone else offering feedback or ideas, and no one else willing to play, will the studio just rely on this fixed group and their own ideas, exploring things on their own? Can the studio be confident enough that it can keep Age of Empires IV alive even with a narrow development focus?

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  1. I believe some players, like me, love Age of Empires IV because we got interested in the IP through Age of Empires II: DE and III: DE. We enjoy seeing the various, diverse civilizations with their unique clothing, buildings, and units clashing on the battlefield, fighting, and managing our own little cities, recruiting soldiers, and experiencing the mutual tug of war. For me, I enjoy Age of Empires because I like medium and heavy armor, cold weapons, shields, and the look of medieval armor. So, besides Age of Empires, I also enjoy the Total War series. I’ve always thought I prefer Age of Empires IV over Age of Empires II, because it truly distinguishes the different civilizations and factions in terms of appearance and gameplay. At least it doesn’t have soldiers with generic European armor anymore, which is enough to catch my interest. But over time, the lack of substantial game modes, mechanics, and some basic technical issues in Age of Empires IV have clearly become more serious than its displayed strengths. I’ve slowly lost patience and interest. I hope Age of Empires IV can have a long lifespan.
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I just want to remind you that Microsoft was the one that dissolved ensamble studio, the same company that want you to force install windows 11, and the same company that stopped the AOE lll support,

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What more specific thoughts are you trying to convey?

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I like a lot of your opinions and appreciate you taking time to collect your thoughts in this post.

Something that I think is worth considering is the effective value of crowd feedback, and its ability to influence the outcome of development.

There seems to be a reoccurring theory that there is some kind of influence coming from the fan-base. That people who post on the forums are in some way directly responsible, whether that’s by influence or because the developers take that as their entire direction.

I think this theory stems from a sense of self-importance. I think people have placed a lot of weight in the idea that their opinion can shape the game.

Some food for thought, is anyone happy about the additions in any of the DLCs? Like, no reservations, no notes, just pure support?

The answer is a firm no. Every person who has ever given their opinion has had some kind of issue with what is present in any expansion.

I think it is very interesting as a psychological profile: a large portion of this fanbase has made the assumption that other fans have created the direction in development. The reality is that this has likely been the plan internally since the beginning. The most I think the fanbase has had an effect on is on the aesthetic side. Even then it was a compromise, you can see active discussions trying to urge the developers to alter things like variant naming conventions further. Because ultimately the developers have their own vision they are trying to accomplish.

When we interact with each other on the social platforms that’s most of what is happening. We interact with other community members, not so much with the developers.

Sometimes the posts people make to the developers reminds me of how people pray to a deity figure. There’s no real response, and whatever happens with the game causes anxiety and frustration, that god has not heard them. They take their anger out on non-believers, punishing them for not having prayed with them.

It’s the thing that has bothered me about this community more than anything else. Many interactions seem to come from a place where they would use the community to effect a personal agenda rather than just use it for what it is. A community that interacts with each other. Sharing frustration, excitement, strategy. A place we can support each other.

So in that spirit I appreciate you for sharing your thoughts and feelings. It’s really what this space is for. I just urge you not to think of your fellow community members as being responsible for the development in some kind of way. None of us posting here have that level of influence or power.

What is most true is the developers having a desire to make something that is enjoyable. They have systems to measure feedback from players that go far beyond forums posts. They have people within their team whose entire role is to consider how it would feel to play their game. They miss the mark at times, and they aren’t always tailoring it to popular opinion, and sometimes they are even limited by factors outside of their control… but they are making a game designed to be enjoyed.

I can see the value that variants have. They define AoE 4 as something independent of all of the other age titles. They offer a fresh way to depict gameplay, even giving cultures a kind of plurality, with multiple ways to play as the many cultures this game represents. It offers identity and purpose that brings depth to those civs. It does it all while maintaining the core identity of civs in AoE, asymmetry.

Creating the things that you enjoyed in AoE requires having passion for the game. Video game developers are artists, and artists create something for others to enjoy (usually by using emotional feedback, for this medium: active engagement). It’s hard to see people lose faith in that, we all play games because of that passion and joy. I hope people can remember that, even as they experience frustration and disappointment.

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The reason I’m posting this isn’t because I expect Worlds Edge and the Age team to accomplish something great, but because I believe that, as a game development team, if you’ve decided to continue development, the basics that should be done are:

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  1. First and foremost, you need to understand the game better than any player. At the very least, you should know how to play it, how to handle data, how to compare and how to position units, and how to utilize them effectively. How can we be sure that the Age team knows the game better than the players and modders? Or maybe they don’t play the game at all?

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  1. Secondly, if you’ve decided to continue development and extend the game’s content, there should be a clear and well-defined update plan and goals. At the very least, players should be informed of some details, such as what you’re attempting to achieve in the next plan and how long it will take. Provide a relatively clear outline and summary for both the developers and players about the issues and details of the game for each stage of development. This helps everyone understand what is being done and why, and allows everyone to wait with peace of mind. Instead of acting almost dead and saying nothing, and then randomly telling us you’re working on something new and innovative.

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  1. It’s impossible for a game to satisfy everyone, so the game studio must have a clear goal, creativity, and direction for the game. Just like in tabletop games, where you design pieces and rules, you need to consistently promote and engage the public at every stage of development to continuously get feedback and foster discussion. Otherwise, no matter what you’re making, it will be useless. It won’t just fail to satisfy everyone, it will fundamentally fail to satisfy humanity. It’s like building a car behind closed doors. Once the game is released and open to comments, it will face public evaluation. While opinions may vary, accepting player feedback doesn’t mean blindly agreeing with it. The studio should have a clearer self-positioning and thought process to mediate feedback and address issues. Why is there so much frustration in the community now? It’s hard to say if it’s solely the players’ fault. Could it be that when the studio sees players as unreasonable or asking for things that don’t make sense, they find it hard to look at their own issues? Because they hold the power to develop and operate the game, they may ignore their own problems. When they perceive players as unreasonable, do they seriously reflect on whether they have treated their player base with the care and seriousness it deserves?

Developers have the right to have their vision, but if this vision is merely about fulfilling their self-identified values while disregarding the broader player experience, then this game should not have been made in the first place. This is different from situations where developers deliver quality updates, but there are still players who find fault for the sake of finding fault.

My position is: as a player, I’m a player. So, from my own interest and standpoint, I won’t empathize or consider the game company’s perspective. I won’t help the merchants to “feel good” about themselves. Different groups have different interests. What players need are practical enjoyment, content, and a feasible commitment. Merchants have their interests, and players have theirs. Asking players to abandon their own interests for the sake of saintly compassion is a flawed logic. Even if the game updates slowly, what we need is often a clear and well-defined plan. Just like in real estate, residents need reliable information on housing quality, safety, and transportation. But even this kind of information hasn’t been provided in the four years of Age of Empires IV’s news and updates.

When modders are tirelessly using their passion, understanding, and thought to create mods to meet the diverse needs of the player base, what is the studio doing? If they have more important work to do, where are the results? Ultimately, why are so many people frustrated, angry, and upset? Is it possible that the reason is that, even just a little bit, the studio has never truly listened to or seriously considered the player base?

Do developers truly want to create a game that everyone can enjoy? I think what you’ve said doesn’t prove this. Firstly, you’re not a programmer at Age of Empires. Secondly, you don’t participate in Microsoft’s management. Thirdly, neither you nor I are part of the game development team. Fourthly, neither you nor I are in the decision-making team of Relic, World’s Edge, or the Age team. So why should we assume, from a player’s perspective, whether the studio wants to do something good, or assume that they have a good idea? This line of thinking seems very strange to me. I can’t understand its validity. Everything in the world is, on the surface, driven by interests and the exchange of benefits. When I haven’t received the benefits I’m supposed to get, why should I put myself in the shoes of the higher-ups and try to empathize with them?

Regarding the issue of variants, as I’ve mentioned before, I don’t want to say more. I can only say that the success or failure of variants depends on whether the studio has a clearer mind, logical thinking, creativity, and an understanding of what they are doing. If they lack depth of thought, a grasp of the game’s essence, and creativity as a foundation, then how far can variants really go?

inally, the conclusion is: Is it fair to blame players for their anger, frustration, and complaints? When we talk about how bad the social and cultural environment is and how aesthetic standards have declined, there are always some people in power who tell you: “We only made what the masses like, and because they like it, we made it, so the public is at fault.”

Is this way of thinking correct? First of all, the public doesn’t have the power to influence decisions or engage in substantial political participation and cultural transmission. The public’s cultural level and cognitive abilities are very limited. It can be said that the public lacks the ability to distinguish things related to aesthetics, culture, and self-awareness. The public does not clearly understand their real needs and is more easily swayed by external information. While we ensure that the public’s material needs are met, it is essential to build cultural and intellectual foundations that align thought processes with material progress. People must develop habits of dialectical thinking so they don’t just adopt external information blindly. The responsibility of those in power is to guide the public’s thoughts and help raise their intellectual and cultural level.

When those in power decide to construct the cultural and intellectual framework, it’s because they hold the power to influence, and thus, they are responsible for guiding and transmitting the right values. But now, the society has turned this around. The upper class is unwilling to self-reflect, which means they lack clarity. When those in power can’t view things dialectically, they can’t provide a solid cultural foundation for the public. This leads to the spread of shallow and incorrect thinking, and with the help of various media, this narrows the public’s ability to think. They won’t critically analyze what’s wrong, and thus, the masses are easily misled into thinking they need things they don’t even want.

When this shift of power occurs, its consequences are clear. The ideas prevalent in society become superficial, shallow, and fickle. This widespread mentality leads to a superficial cultural environment, which becomes a closed loop—a circle, from the top of the pyramid to the bottom, and back again, representing a structural regression in human society’s intellectual and cultural development.

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So, when people on this forum complain, feel frustrated, or blame the studio, is it really just the players imposing their desires on the studio? Or is it that the studio hasn’t properly acknowledged and considered the player base, leading to more and more complaints?

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After saying so much, what I really hope for the most right now is something more practical:

  1. I hope they can fix the AI and code to enable a 500 population limit.

  2. I can wait, but I hope the Age team can provide players with a clearer plan summary and a more reliable roadmap at each stage.

As for when other technical issues will be resolved, I’m honestly not too concerned at the moment, because I know it’s a hopeless wait and won’t be fixed. As for additional game modes and providing players with more choices, those are mere wishes and hopeless hopes.

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Yep the same Microsoft is now killing the entire Age Franchise and killing Xbox. The same Microsoft that is telling you that consoies are outdated and just now acts as a third party publisher.

How in the hell is a good decision to close a studio (Tango Gameworks) that developed one of the best Xbox Titles to date (Hi Fi Rush) when your platform lacks great exclusive games?

But not only its Gaming Division. Lets dive in

Is the same Microsoft that could not make a proper Mobile Ecosystem laughing at Apple’s iPhone launch, investing only in Enterprise services, and then regretting about it. the same Microsoft that stood still on not improving its own browser through the years and then obligate you to use it. The same Microsoft that launched Surface tablet as a End Product, when lacked a large support of apps and services. The same Microsoft that now is forcing you to install Windows 11 an OS that have more telemetry, bloatware and a use of AI that most people do not want while making its system requirements higher than ever

All Microsoft is plagued of incompetence and a outrageous lack of common sense
Doing nothing but making very bad decisions with their own products and services and then blaming the users, the consumers the customers for them

The most valuable company has more money than a lot of smaller indie studios but very passionate, creative, and careful with their games and players

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Microsoft already is a monopoly. And this act of selfserving cannibalism, buying out studios and chewing out its soul until its left as a husk is common place in much of the world unfortunately. They keep doing this until the era has been effectively killed, and await new victims in the next era to purchase and bind into servitude. Instead of creating something new with their incomprehensible wealth, they keep atrophying our creations.

Because after all, who actually gives a damn about a company once its no longer theirs? The innate relationship of larger studios purchasing smaller one is one of servitude. That has never been healthy and this form of capitalism is the very root problem of almost all things in our time.

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If you look it deep, they really are following the same strategy of Embrace, extend, and extinguish

  • Embracing by supporting all AoE titles, releasing patches and launching good DLCs
  • Extending by releasing content people do not want, content that they know will cause discomfort, half-baked o poorly optimized. Content that would mark to be the Standard (Recent AoE II DLCs. Variants for AoE IV)
  • Extinguish the games and content that do not follow its Standard (AoE I and III DE), moving or dismantling the studios behind, blaming players in the process and then remaining with the Standard they have created and the ecosystem adopted

Microsoft being Microsoft now and then
Nothing new!

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There is a council of experts from the community that help inform their process. The full membership of that group is unknown, it should stay that way to avoid the lynch mobs that form during these DLC announcements, but it’s filled with people who have a long history with the franchise.

On them knowing better than modders… they made the game. Modders are not superior to developers. When they are they get hired, it’s actually the background of some of the development team! Forgotten Empires consists of former modders!

This is a bit more complicated to accomplish than simply sharing with the fanbase. To maintain their own process they can’t take feedback from the fanbase as their main source of direction. Over the last two years they’ve been improving their communication incrementally. Sharing the whole process and giving the community the reins is just not going to happen.

It comes down to artistic integrity. Iterative development, where they release something and take feedback, is key to success in development. It’s also what is currently being done. But this is not a crowdsourced endeavor. They are trying to meet the game directors vision while balancing what the community enjoys. As the artist, their vision ultimately comes first.

By the way, they release blog posts every 3 months or so. I wish they would do more as well, but it’s pretty clear they do this in a way that lines up with development.

There’s a lot to the rest that stems from your opinions and feelings on what the developers may be thinking. I can’t tell you what they think, much in the same way that you can’t tell me that they aren’t giving the general playerbase what they want. We can talk only about individual desires.

It’s a classic philosophical quandry.

Do you see the glass half full or half empty?

A psychologist would say half full is optimistic, half empty is pessimistic.

A programmer sees it as an incomplete system with an available state and potential for improvement.

An artist sees creative inspiration, they see the light shining through the glass. The shape of the glass and how water bends that light, or how the material changes the color of it as it passes through.

It’s all about perspective.

I can see the effort and passion. Others cannot. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Yes. That would be asking each person to be responsible for their own emotions and expectations. To do otherwise is to shelter their ego.

It is extremely clear many prefer their ego to reality, it seems to be common among humans.

Do you have any quote from someone affiliated development who has shared this with anyone? The most I’ve ever found is that people expect more than they can deliver, which is not critical… it’s literally what is happening.

100% yes. Absolutely.

It stems from a self-indulgent impulse to receive what they personally want.

It’s incredibly conceited and selfish. It destroys the fabric of this community.

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The whole “it’s i hard to satisfy everyone” or “you just disagree with their perspective” thing is, like many of the stuff they and their apologists have been saying, euphemism at its best.

The problem is not their perspective. It’s their lack of A perspective.
Yes it is hard to please everyone. But as long as you have a clear direction, you could at least please someone.

To be fair, the communication had never been good. Every time they just dropped a “we have something exciting upcoming!” with some enigmatic pictures and that’s it.

But why were people fine back then? Because we knew what to expect. That is a reputation carefully cultivated by ES and then FE during the HD era then the early days of DE.
You hear something upcoming. You know it is going to be a few civs+a few campaigns. You may not like the choice, but it is what it is. (Even the AOE3 US and Mexico DLC, which feels very much like one DLC split in two, made up by adding three scenarios for the DLC owners). When they say DLC, campaign, civ, you know they’ll live up to the quality
This all changed since 2024 after V&V. They had burned that decade-long reputation for temporary heating. Now nothing they say guarantees quality any more.

Campaign? Ha, V&V
Civ? Ha, 3K, variants, exclusively variants
DLC? Ha, some strange not-civs plus their latest half-hearted “innovation” to deliver less
SP content? Ha, just another “innovative” mode from other genres
Even announcements themselves? They could go into silence and cancel it out of nowhere

Now every time they tease something, with increasingly flashy words, surprising, bold, unprecedented, reality-shattering, quantum-entangling, blahblahblah, you don’t know what it is going to be and what new shiny “innovation” they are going to insert in place of something perfectly solid and standard.

That’s where anxiety and frustration comes from. We are now living in the Russian roulette world of “what random parts are they going to shoot in the next DLC”
AND IT IS 100% THEIR FAULT

This is NOT helped by the hundred different mindsets within the developers and management that all fight each other. An experiment here, ditch it, another experiment there, ditch it.
You like antique civs in AOE2 subgames? What about we directly squeeze antique non-civs into the AOE2 base game?

As a result, not only you are not sure which part they are going to “innovate”, but also you are pretty sure it would be replaced by another pile of nonsense.

Watching AOE4 going down the same path is like watching the same things in slow motion because for unknown reasons, the progress is much slower compared to the money they made from the “best selling expansion ever”

And AOE2 had almost 10 DLCs since HD. It is saturated. It is a little more understandable for them to try something “new”. But it is not the case here.

I have no idea why they just refuse to make the bread and butter.
If they want to ditch that direction forever, fine. Let us know. We won’t waste any time or money on you.

I already said that about 3K. Now I say it again:
WE, innovate on civ design, campaign storytelling, gameplay mechanics, things that really matter
DO NOT innovate on monetization

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Since when are we going to declare the playbase betrayed WE?

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Its quite the opposite bro
WE betrayed the playerbase
They are still doing it

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I know. But they keep telling us it’s entirely our fault.

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Who is telling you this.

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Some WE minion whose name I forgot

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It’s interesting that you believe they care enough about you to antagonize you and seem almost spiteful, to the point of ignoring your desires.

Do you believe the developers are telling you that you don’t matter? I think you do, I think it matters a great deal how we treat each other.

We should be here to support each other. Regardless of whether or not we agree. I’m sorry that you feel mistreated.

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It’s pretty creative to call something BASIC as “desires”

Do I even need to matter for them to continue doing the same thing they have been doing for 20 years and not burn their own reputation?

You mean support everything WE does?
No

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No I mean to support each other.

I said this in another discussion, but anger and violence just look like pain and sadness to me. Your expectations weren’t met, you feel embittered and disillusioned.

There’s genuinely no reason to fight each other. We’re all ultimately on the same side.

We can’t change the course of events by exerting anger towards each other, it would be much nicer to see each other as human and accept each other.

The developers are people too. They are not encouraged to listen by abusing them.

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You keep finding very creative ways to call “something basic”

If one of “us”, whatever that means, ends up blocking any criticism, it’s not the same side.

Tell them to act like people not as corporate PR talking through their bots

No. It comes from shock from how utterly a consumer can discard all his dignity and self-respect.