Yes I think that would be a decent small additional buff. The 10% movement speed bonus is nice but offers only a minor eco buff. I think for farms it was +2-3% in early game. Not sure how it affects gold/wood/stone. My guess would be 1-2% faster rate.
The other idea with -10% cost on cav in feudal age is also awesome.
It also helps escaping against raids. Ofc the idle time also matters but vills not dying is pretty huge
Can’t even really call it overlap, cause it still is cheaper cavalry in general, despite the fact feudal only has scouts as options.
and the more i think about it the more justifiable the boost is for the camel archer… FU CamA takes 36 shots to kill a paladin, with the buff it would take 30 shots (thats not OP,). CamA has no bonus vs camels or pikes, the primary counters for the berber stable units, yes they can train their own camels, but the CamA could see more use, and compete for the S tier position…
FU cavalier takes 23 hits, vs 20 for the buffed CamA…
lol blanket statement doesnt mean its true, since when is a camel archer more versatile than a mangudai that can kill siege(the very counter to massed CA) and gets parthian tactics, so is considerably better at supporting cavalry vs pikes…
I would say they’re more accessible than versatile. Cheaper to produce and has a cheaper Elite upgrade. 7 attack for non-Elite and Kasbah means they’re more viable than mangudai in castle age, also base 1 pierce armor. Also opposing camels don’t counter them since their bonus against them is much lower.
+1 bonus might not seem much but considering how many civs Berbers counter and invalidate their main strategies, its better left alone. Camel archer is probably the last UU I would see buffed considering the things we see on this forum. For now, I’d give them the same frame delay as Mangudai, in DE it seems nerfed or is made higher than Mangudai
Well, the Mangudai comparison is always highly problematic because that’s what Mongols rely on in late game. Berbers have that insane cav bonus and generally more versatility as a civ. Siege shouldn’t be that much of a problem to deal with because of great cav units and access to bbc. And Mangudai are also that strong because of it’s regular stats. The fact that camel archers have similar stats (lower firing rate but more pierce armor, rest roughly the same) should speak for itself imo. It’s a great unit vs a lot of units and even invalidates any cav archer play from your opponent. The camel archer really is one of two reasons (less important than stable discount, though) why Berbers can be so strong although they have no general eco bonus.
I’m shocked more people don’t see this.
They’re virtually a camel Mangudai. Yes, they fire a bit slower (15%, not taking thumb ring differences into account), no siege bonus, but they regenerate, don’t take much damage from Pikeman, more armour, same damage while being cheaper and training faster…
They have the same frame delay as Mangudai. They’re a fantastic unit (one of the best in the game, stat wise) that counters a strong option against CA: your own CA.
They shred CA, Mangudai, Kipchak, while being okay vs Skirmishers (Regen helps pick them off, hit and run), and everything slower than them due to the extremely high damage output.
They don’t need more bonuses.
It also helps (me) to lure boars…
haha yeah i love that as well!
halberdier does 32 cav, 26 camel… i would reconsider “dont take much damage”, also cam archers arent doing bonus damage vs pikes, so you might be taking a bit less, but you’re doing A LOT LESS damage… 11 from mangudai(x higher ROF) compared to 8…
lower ROF = LESS dps, 15% is quite a big number bro…
this is a MASSIVE thing… only 2 archers(edit 3!) in the entire game can obliterate rams, and only ONE can obliterate all other siege…
and MOST IMPORTANTLY i never said the camel archer is weak by any means, but neither does +1 cav damage turn it into an OP unit… it just gives it a thematic buff… but i know, i know this forum is almost always against changes that rock the boat no matter how small… imagine long bowmen never had the 5 range, they would still outrange other archers thanks to racial bonus, but thematically they needed the 5 range… or imagine elite LB had only 5 range instead of 6… and so forth, but because these things already exist in the game people are like “oh its fine”
nice yeah i forgot! haha and i was just using them last night…
also. Damage and dps are two separate stats.
yeah definitely, but when considering equal damage ROF will naturally take a roll as well
15% isn’t nearly as big as having less damage. 1 less damage can be up to 50%, depending on the targets pierce armour. Damage can be extremely strong situationally.
3 hits vs 4, which isn’t bad. Regeneration helps them too.
I won’t pick at small stats. What we’re looking at is:
Camel Archers counter all CA hard.
Mangudai counter siege.
Mangudai do slightly more damage.
Camel Archers regenerate their own HP.
Do Camel archers need anything else, realistically? They’re cheaper, and one of the best UU. +1 wouldn’t break anything, but I don’t feel they need it. If they didn’t regenerate, I’d say yes.
I’d like to mention, I’m the first one who would be on your side for this haha. I’ve argued similar points for the Kipchak for a long time, because it’s a small tweak that I feel would balance the unit better. I’m not convinced in this case, but I’d be happy to be convinced.
Berbers are amazing. If you want ro buff something, buff their water, so they can also become a competitive civ in water (altough they’re already over the average civ).
Otherwise, they are fine. Camel archers are among the best UU in thr game (and completely kill the, probably, best UU in the game)
I wouldn’t change a single stat from camel archer, it was broken few years ago without any anti arch damage, camel archer was superior than plums, chokus, etc and it had more hp, it does its job killing cav archers, they have camels to counter cavalry, their only weakness are superior camel civs.
Viper puts Mongols in the B tier btw, just like Berbers.