Campaign DLC concept for Japanese and Koreans

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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This seems fair to me – for Koreans, the Hussar upgrade has a high cost to benefit ratio because of their lack of the other upgrades. Giving them Bloodlines would have balance implications for War Wagons though. Plate Barding and Blast Furnace would affect other units as well, of course, but not in such an impactful way.

Why? Do you think the free Bombard Tower upgrade is too powerful? Personally I don’t think it’s a problem, and think late-game towers in general are underpowered. It’s almost always better to spend the stone on a castle – especially if you have a good unique unit, which Koreans do.

Honestly, I don’t think bringing it closer to history is sufficient justification for such major changes to the unit – especially since this doesn’t seem very much closer to history to me. There really ought to be some gameplay justification as well. I also think changing the projectiles to arrows but having them no longer benefit from the fletching line is unintuitive.

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campaign full is start samurai is clan fight, part important then Japan when history cover make maps. 1 Taira and Minamoto, Minamoto one fight bridge, in fields ally Kyoto and army wins Taira dead. 2 the Hōjō shōgun is better king. 3 enemy mongol Kamakura shogunate fight, typhoon two ship win, end map Go-Daigo. 4 Go-Daigo and Ashikaga shogunate because wins. 5 big map Ashikaga shogunate daimyō shōgun hard all war civil hard fun all player is fight all.

prove there map campaign time do

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I do not think it’s a problem too but my perspective of thinking is different.
I noticed that this bonus also affects Bombard Tower upgrade, which is a part that goes almost unnoticed because people always use arrow towers and almost do not need it. Since people always use their arrow towers and do not need the free Bombard Tower upgrade, and their arrow tower is indeed good enough, it could be better to take down the free Bombard Tower upgrade and give it to other potential civilizations like Jurchens.

I might have insisted more on making the War Wagon more accurate than on making other unique units more accurate as it is probably the worst in this aspect.
Currently, its name is generic, its appearance is not Korean, and even the way it works is inaccurate. Being counterattacked by skirmishers makes it completely unlike a wagon, and firing bolts instead of rocket arrows makes it completely unlike a hwacha. It is classified as a cavalry archer simply because there were no cavalry+siege class in the game before the Khmers were introduced.

Even the Mameluke’s name is specific and makes sense as a UU of Saracens, and the Woad Raider is indeed related to the Celts in pop culture, however even Koreans themselves may not understand why War Wagon is their UU in the game.

This is entirely a matter of whether people are used to it. New players may also think it unintuitive that the fletching affects Galleons’ bolts but does not affect Scorpions’ bolts. If the rocket arrows Hwacha Wagon and Nest of Bees firing are visually similar to ordinary arrows but have some differences, such as being slightly thicker, almost as long as skirmishers’ spears or tied with a smoky propelling device, then there would be no problem in distinguishing.

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Their yabusame horse archery dates back 1,500 years ago, which is way before the Mongol invasions.

The various Northeast Asian peoples of the 4th and 5th centuries AD, such as the Xianbei, the Baekje, the Goguryeo, the Kofun etc. had a way longer lasting impact on Koreans and Japanese than the later Mongols.

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The problem is “predominantly”.
They did use mounted archery, and there are also records of mounted archery in the early Middle Ages, but whether their warfare was predominantly cavalry, especially after the 13th century, I think it’s not really.

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Their elite army certainly did use mounted archery before the Mongol invasions.

Mounted archery existed way before the Mongols.

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Did you notice that my reply did not deny this?

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Yes, and I also did not deny that they weren’t predominantly cavalry.

However, mounted archery certainly existed among their elite troops, especially among the samurai.

For instance, famous medieval Japanese painting Moko Shurai Ekotoba depicting the Mongol invasions, with its first scroll depicting the battle scene of the 1274 Mongol invasion showing Mongol and Goryeo foot archers shooting at a Japanese samurai horse archer

This painting also debunked another myth that the Mongols wore very little armor. As depicted here they were quite heavily armored, the three Mongol warriors attacking the fallen samurai horse archer even wore Song style helmets.

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And another part of the scroll showing a group of samurai horse archers counter-attacking the Mongols

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I think you have read my post the wrong way round.

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I think you misunderstood what I was getting at – probably I didn’t explain clearly. I’m not claiming that the War Wagon is historically accurate. I just don’t think a 24-year-old unit should be changed purely on the grounds of historical accuracy – I think there has to be a clear gameplay reason for the change as well. This is purely personal preference, and you’re obviously welcome to disagree.

I agree very strongly with this part though:

Being counterattacked by skirmishers makes it completely unlike a wagon

Skirmishers countering War Wagons looks silly, but it also makes Koreans in general a bit too heavily countered by skirmishers. I’m not sure what should counter War Wagons, but I don’t think skirmishers were the right choice.

Maybe. I think it’s pretty understandable how in the year 2000, American developers with limited information about medieval Korean armies would come up with it, though.

(I also think several other unique units are “worse”, but it’s not a competition.)

I’m an old player and I think that’s unintuitive, especially since it did in AoK.

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map 3 of me, big this idea you like. There time, hour one, resist mongol, mongol into island fight. Typhoon after hour one mongol is dead so life in real

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To some extent, changing the class from cavalry archer to cavalry + siege would make the wagon unable to be affected from the free archer armor bonus, which means the power of fast castle UU rush would be a bit mitigated. The wagon would be no longer be counterattacked by skirmishers but mangonels, while it has high HP and somehow can hit-and-run the mangonels and on the other hand there might be better cavalry units that can fight the mangonels.

As the wagon becomes like an arrows-firing volley gun it would be naturally good at against foot units in dense formation, but when each projectile has lower attack (like 2 to 3 or better like 4 to 5) than the one bolt it would become a little worse at countering the high HP/armor units such like cavalry than before.

Maybe what you need would be just a night to get used to it.
But anyway I don’t really insist on make the rocket arrows unable to be affected by the fletching line, but it just means the more adjustment on stats would be needed.

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私のアイデアに誰も反応しなかったようです。きっと私の英語が下手だからでしょう。

私は、起こり得る日本での作戦を 5 つのシナリオで説明しました。もしよろしければ、アイデアを膨らませて新しいスレッドを立てさせていただきます。ここでは、3 番目のシナリオであるモンゴルの日本侵略について説明します。

1時間のタイマーがついています。その間、モンゴル人はさまざまな島に上陸し、あなたは抵抗しなければなりません。難しいのは、同時に別の場所に注意を払わなければならないことです。タイマーが切れると、台風によりモンゴル船が破壊されたというメッセージが表示され、勝利となります。

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message before say “operations” no translation, is “campaign”.

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キャンペーンは歴史上の人物やその家族などの「生涯」をもとにして構成したものなんです。つまり、キャンペーンには固定された一つの主人公、またその家族がいると期待され、ただ日本の歴史から５つの戦いを組み立つだけではないとおもいます。例えば、私のアイディアには真田氏を中心にキャンペーンをつくります。 あなたのアイディアの主人公は源氏ですか、北条氏ですか、後醍醐天皇ですか、それとも足利氏ですか？

源平合戦（鎌倉幕府の成立）と室町幕府の成立は同じキャンペーンの中にあるはずがないと思いますが、その５つの戦いはHistorical Battlesのような独立なシナリオでつくられだらいいですね。源平合戦はすでに倶利伽羅としてゲームに登場したし、元寇襲来と神風もKamikazeとしてわたしのこのスレッドにありますよ。

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はい、あなたの言いたいことはわかります。さて、私の蒙古襲来のアイデアは、ぜひシナリオ化すべきです。それは日本の歴史の中で象徴的なものです。

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In AoE2 we love campaign where a civilization fight another civilization but the japanese were a little isolated. Civil wars in japan re good to make campaign but in order to put scenario where the japanese fight another civilization than japanese I propose :

Mongol invasion of Japan : Fight against Mongol japanes, korean , jurchen. Good but short lived campaign

ijmin war : Fight against chinses and korean. Good but it’s better to play the campaign against the invader because turtle ship are cool.

Wokou campaign : From the 13th century to the 17th century, the wokou pirates raided chinese and korean coast. In the later period they fight in southern chinese sea against the Ming dynasty, the spanish in Philippine and the siamese in the city of Patany. Also the ming and the portuguese allied against them in 1564. But this later wokou were mostly chinese. French Wikipedia indicate also, than they go in Thailand, Burma and India.

So in the wokou campaign the player start playing the japanese and switch to the chines in the last scenarios. The enemy can be the korean, chinese, malay, spanish, portuguese, burmese, dravidian, malay. Also int his campaign we can have many of the unique ship : turtle ship, loushuan, galleon, caravel, dragon ship. Because of the wokou were of diverse ethnic origins you can recruit many UU from different civilization : chu ko nu, samuraï, karambit warrior, etc.

Japanese vs Ainu campaign. In this campaign we introduce a new civilization the Ainu. This campaign relate the conquest of the Ainu and Emishi by the japanese (Emishi were good horse archer for their UU)

Ainu campaign The story of the Ainu people. First they fight against the japanese. later they fight against the Nivkh and Udege peoples who were vassal of the mongols. In retaliation the mongol launched an invasion of Sakhalin

In this campaign you fight against the japanese then against the mongol and the ainu (Nivkh people)