CATAPHRACT TRAMPLE

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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First thing first is a shoutout to @Adribird90 for making the Unit Tester Mod. Great at facilitating self testing.

Using the Unit Tester Mod i found that Trample negates armor so it applies damage like poison and siege damage. Which is very cool. Also it maybe a bug but trample does 12 instead of 10?? And it didn’t appear to upgrade from castle cataphracts to elite cataphracts. Could just be a bug.

Next i found trample could hit 3 infantry units wide ranks so about a 1 tile radius from the center of the cataphract.

Last benefit is trample can be activated at any distance inside the trample radius which is a plus when chasing units within ranges that are TOO short for traditional charge mechanics to activate.

However these are the deficiencies

  1. Trample doesn’t home in on moving targets the way normal charging does.
  2. There is an animation lock that occurs AFTER the Trample has completed so you’re rooted for a few seconds as if you were stunned via spearwall.
  3. Because all the cataphracts do not overlap their trajectories it’s unlikely to be able to stack more than 4 tramples on any 1 unit. Wedge formation can help more than 4 cataphracts tramples stacking but that formation isn’t the most functional. In the standard case of lancer charging damage 4 charges would often result in overkill, however likely it would kill indeed. The issue with the trample is everything is likely still alive after only receiving 4 trample damage. You’d have to stagger the trample to get better efficiency and that’s a lot of micro especially since enemy can bait and dodge your trample given deficiency 1…

Next using the Unit Tester
Cost for cost no upgrades

8 cataphracts loss half the time to 11 knights
5 cata loss all vs 14 maa
8 cata loss all vs 11 mounted samurai
8 cata loss aĺl vs 11 camel lancers

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I really want to use this unit but god does it suck, please just buff it or drop the gold cost so it doesn’t lose vs everything cost effectively.

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To be fair

Only the maa and standard knights results are disappointing because mounted samurai have reflective armor and camel have the 20% cav debuff.

Also in a real game you’d have various civ bonuses that would play a factor like the special teardrop armor upgrade, triumph and flasks. It may just be that cataphracts needs all its special upgrades and more to be fearsome???

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Perhaps but other knights perform well just as standard in castle age or before and often have great late game techs as well. Getting all its upgrades and / or landmarks just so it becomes useable seems a bit much.
It is very disappointing for a unit that costs 180 food/150 gold and has no charge and also moves the slowest.

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I was not the one who made the mod, but I promote it whenever I can because of its great usefulness.

Thanks.

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There are so many more issues with Trample than what is listed here.

Trample gets cancelled by almost every thing in the game. Including Ore deposits, felled trees, buildings and unwalkable hills, water and rivers. A charge on the other hand will keep chasing and will run around these obstacles.

Trample has a much longer cooldown than a regular charge, and can easily be dodged, making it an ability that is easily wasted. You said it was an advantage that Trample can be used from anywhere, not being dependent on range. This is not true. Charge has many tricks where you can get it to hit units immediately infront of you by charging at units behind them. Another cool trick is charging units far away to get perpetual speed boosts to run away. Trample has none of these.

Another big issue is damage. Trample does 12 damage, and ignores armour. While this sounds good on paper, if it didn’t ignore armour, it would be entirely useless, and even at 12 damage, it is insufficient. The reason is simple. At 12 damage, Trample, unlike Charge, is not worth using. The fundamental issue is that Charge acts as an initial bonus to any conflict, no matter how big or small (+10 damage to your first melee attack with short cooldown). Trample on the other hand does LESS damage than your auto attack, meaning it is a waste of time to use it unless you can ensure that you hit at least 3 targets.

And as you’ve pointed out, the Cataphract feels more whole when using flasks and other enhancements. IMO, I run Cistern of the First Hill and the flasks end up being a much larger part of Cataphracts than Trample ever has. It begs the question if the unit is built this way, why then isn’t the flask it’s ability instead of Trample? The unit current feels like a beefy MAA that is weak to spears.

All of these factors mean the following; Trample can only be used in open spaces with nothing blocking their path, eliminating the major use case of Knight runbys. The long cooldown, linear attack is much harder to land and ends up needing much more niche ############## planning, meaning it does not act as a damage bonus like charge does. That you need to hit multiple targets to make it worth using ultimately means you need more Cataphracts, which already cost a lot, to justify using Trample. And that despite doing everything right, the Flask mechanic ends up being a far more interesting and meaningful mechanic for them.

In the end, the Trample only has one useful usecase. Which is that the more units your enemy masses, the more damage one Trample can potentially do, meaning it is soft locked in usefulness to later stage in the game.

Here are my suggestions.

  1. Make it run around obstacles during Trample. I know this can mean it would technically maybe run further than intended due to angles when changing direction, but as long as it is within the Trample circle and length, I don’t see the issue.

  2. Damage. Make Trample do regular charge damage to the first unit it hits, meaning +10 of melee damage. This would make it worth using as an opener and make it less of effort when you don’t end up hitting many units.

  3. I would consider making Trample either have a bigger hitbox, or more damage per attack than 12. The current thinking is that you typically need more Cataphracts to make a real use of Trample, which is difficult due to the cost barrier of being 40% more expensive. A unit that already costs so much should be more effective, not less to compensate for being generally unable to mass more of them.

  4. I think it might be too slow as it stands, but that might just be the Cataphract in general.

1 Like
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You wrote much, highly inaccurate and inconsistent remarks.

2 out of 3 of those were mentioned.

You said something wasn’t true then proceed to provide zero evidence for your claim of what is untrue? Nevermind the fact you misquoted me?? Lastly if you did understand what i actually said then you would know trample CAN be use effectively to RUN AWAY? And you can trample at point blank which is oneof the tricks you attempt with standard charge when you target a far enemy unit and on purpose allow a near enemy unit to bodyblock and therefore receive the charge damage.

More confusion on your part the trample damage is an AREA OF EFFECT DAMAGE that appears to hit 3+ units wide ranks. So for example if you were able to Trample an army perfectly * you could easily do over 108 damage by hitting 9 units with a single cataphract trample?? You think that extra free attack standard charge is stronger than that??? Now the practicality of that 100+ dmg vs the standard charge damage is situational and i made mention of this. But simply as a counter to your wrong conclusion, trample does more
total damage than a standard charge as long as you hit 3 units that have any armor.

After this point of yours i just rebutted i stopped reading.

Check your facts.

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You’re taking this awfully personal. The problems I noted was the mechanic and not your post.

Trample sucks and that isn’t your fault.

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Personal or not your information was wrong. That’s not opinion or perspective. That’s facts. Use accurate info so we can discuss our opinions on the FACTS? How is that not a better approach than what youre doing now???

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Don’t get so heated over a discussion about the game, it’s not worth it.

4 Likes
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Back to the facts of the ability and our suggestions:

If they allowed Trample to target moving targets and reduce the delay after the trample animation, that alone would make the ability better than standard charge in most practical situations.

Trample is the only ability that can force a surround on enemy units. And the only ability that can force an escape from a surround of enemy units.

Trample is also faster than standard knight charge speed.

Correction: the radius on Trample appears to be 1 unit radius around the cataphract. So i think i was wrong to say 3 units, since the singular cataphract was obviously always running THRU the middle enemy unit. When I test more last night i notice the cataphracts on the flanks of my rank weren’t damaging more than 1 unit off their respective center trajectories. If wedge army formation wasn’t so clunky it would really really work wonders for Trample, because more of the cataphracts would be tightly formed in one line and therefore more likely the travel the singular* trajectory, aka more units would take consecutive trample splash damage.

Finally i did some 2 and 3 and 4 cataphract micro battles vs maa.
2 cata vs 6 maa
3 vs 9
4 vs 12.

In straight up fights, no gimmicks, the cataphracts always lost…

But each time i was able to get 2 consequences tramples off?? I would get the cataphracts to win!! Granted micro vs an AI… but maybe the unit would be better used as a maneuvering/tank than the standard frontline unit???

Like what if you do NOT waste trample to charge in, but rather trample ALWAYS at point blank, so it can’t be dodged nor spearwall’d (as long as the spears are directly in front and engaged in battle); also stagger small pockets of cataphracts tramples to get as much overlap as possible. Then RETREAT with those cataphracts until you can afford to trample again?

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Knights that can’t even beat men at arms cost effectively, what a terrible unit. Please buff.

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My biggest issue with the Cataphracts is that they are super slow that even some infantry units can outrun them.

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I think trample is a useful and unique ability. It is weak in 1v1 situations but stronger vs clumps of units. That is fine, lets not try to convert it to a basic knight charge. We already have 10+ Civs with that.

It is good for diving the backline and sniping siege units. And a few of them late game can be used to flank the enemy frontline and apply 15 % extra damage debuff, which is an underrated and strong support utility. If you absolutely want a knight type unit as Byzantine, go for Keshik.

They should rather tune the unit in other ways, like cost. Also some of the quality of life improvements mentioned can be implemented. The risk of buffing the trample to much though, is that it can quickly become ridiculously overpowered, due to it’s AOE nature.

Lastly I recommend to play another Civ if you want to mass knights and A-move the enemy. Civs should be unique, and the Cataphract requires special tactics and maneuvers to be effective. So I understand players expecting it to be used as a normal knight are disappointed by it’s performance, because it is a fairly different unit. More of a support and utility unit, and definitely not a cost effective frontline tank or damage dealer.

1 Like
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I don’t think Trample has to function like Charge, but it needs to be comparable in usefulness just from the fact that Charge is a critical part of the main rosters of whom Cataphracts replace.

I think the best simple solution is to just let it deal a full charge attack onto the first target the Trample hits, continuing to work like it does in game. I also think it definitely shouldn’t stop upon touching Ores/Trees/Buildings.

Otherwise, the mechanic is somewhat paradoxical in nature. Trample needs a large quantity of Cataphracts or enemies to be useful, and is entirely useless for diving any backlines. Yet the dilemma is that Cataphracts cost a fortune to build, meaning you can’t effectively get to that critical tipping point realistically.

Alternatively, the opponent needs to mass a lot, which is mostly likely later into the game like Imperial. And the sad problem here is that–this can be countered by using the stagger formation. So unlike every other Knight unit in the game, Cataphracts cost more, take more effort to be useful and without taking Trample into consideration, are by far the worst out of the bunch.

In other words, the mechanic is just bad when you consider that it is a replacement for Charge. It doesn’t need to work like Charge, but be as useful as it at least, and the way it is designed goes almost against the nature of the unit itself.

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They are arguably the best unit in the game for diving the backline, because they can move trough enemy units, and more critically enemy spearmen. But not if you trample in the start of the engagement.

First you A-move to start melee fighting the enemy spearmen, also with other melee units in your army. Then and only then can you use your trample ability to move trough them and reach the backline, because melee fighting disables the brace ability of the spearmen. If you try to trample before that, the enemy spearmen will brace and stop the trample.

I suggest learning advanced knight and spearmen micro mechanics fully before commenting about a micro specific ability. Especially when you come with claims that are completely wrong like this:

Start here. https://youtu.be/qb1Nb46ZYnc

Of course there are ways a skilled enemy can play around this, but that is what is fun about the game.

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For the record, I meant woodlines and by extension villagers in general, not backline which was just me misspeaking. I’m aware you can bypass spears in the most gimmicky way, which, btw, only works for one layer of spear, it seems folly of you to be so awfully arrogant over the most common of knowledge.

Tramples still as useless as can ever be.

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Trample is situational but it is not the reason cataphracts are bad, they need a small buff to speed and reduction in gold cost.

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I never make Cataphracts because they are very expensive. It’s a pity.

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A stun could be added to the cataphract trample ability.
They could also get a weapon tech at the castle age blacksmith that arms them with a longer two handed lance making them ignore spear braces.

1 Like