Change proposal for Germans civ (also for Italians and Indians civs)

Hello everyone to my newest topic.

Now that after the latest update we have received new models of Royal Guard units (German ones are based on Prussia), we already know that the spiliting of umbrella civs are now a impossible.

Since we will no longer get civs such as Prussians, Sicilians or Marathans, I would like the three largest umbrella civs to receive a proper rework, thanks to which they could represent themselves as best as possible.

At the very beginning, I will present you my Germans civ rework proposal, and next time Italians civ (when it comes to Indians civ, I would prefer someone who finds himself in the history of India to do it).

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Germans civ

Features changes

A. Choose “German Land” (like USA civ “State”) to advance in Age. It would resemble the “Federal State” Age Up mechanics - some new Unique Units (plus Jaeger, Swiss Pikeman and Doppelsolder), some new Home City cards and new technologies for Reichtag (building similar to State Capitol from USA civ):

  1. Exploration Age: Pomerania, Frankfurt, Westphalia, Bohemia or Burgundy
  2. Commerce Age: Hanza, Hesse, Swabia, Brandenburg or Thuringia
  3. Fortress Age: Brema, Hamburg, Silesia, Austria or Prussia
  4. Industrial Age: Schleswig-Holstein, Hannover, Saxony, Bavaria or Switzerland
  5. Imperial Age (This is only a cosmetic change for Royal Guardsn civ name and for flag, not the new 6th Age ofc) : Holy Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary Empire or German Empire

B. Royal Guard units (choosing Austria or Prussia brings unique unit models for both, the other options have a default skin) : Skirmisher and Uhlan

C. The Reichtag is their unique counterpart to the Capitol which functions similarly to the State Capital from USA civ.

Additional changes

A. Prussian Royal Guards skins would be reserved for Prussian “German Land”. Brand new “Austrian” for Austria “German Land” would be added.

B. War Wagon would be moved as a Unique Unit offered by Bohemia “German Land”. Settler Wagon would be moved as a Unique Unit offered by Bavaria “German Land”.

C. Mercenary Camp would be moved as a Unique Building offered by Holy Roman Empire “German Land”

6 Likes

Italians civ

Features changes

A. Choose “Italian Antichi Stati” (like USA civ “State”) to advance in Age. It would resemble the “Federal State” Age Up mechanics - some new Unique Units, , some new Home City cards and new technologies for Montecitorio (building similar to State Capitol from USA civ):

  1. Exploration Age: Sardinia, Modena, Siena, Lucca or Corsica
  2. Commerce Age: Malta, Mantua, Genoa, Venice or Florence
  3. Fortress Age: Milan, Pisa, Parma, Verona or Naples
  4. Industrial Age: Tuscany, Savoy, Lombardy, Sicily or Papal State
  5. Imperial Age (This is only a cosmetic change for Royal Guardsn civ name and for flag, not the new 6th Age ofc) : Venice Republic, Kingdom of the Two Sicilies or Kingdom of Italy

B. Royal Guard units (choosing Kingdom of the Two Sicilies or Kingdom of Italy brings unique unit models for both, the other options have a default skin) : Culverin and Mortar

C. The Montecitorio is their unique counterpart to the Capitol which functions similarly to the State Capital from USA civ.

Additional changes

A. Brand new Royal Guards skins would be reserved for Kingdom of Italy “Italian Antichi Stati”. Brand new “Two Sicilian” for Kingdom of the Two Sicilies “Italian Antichi Stati” would be added.

B. Pavisier would be moved as a Unique Unit offered by Genoa “Italian Antichi Stati”. Galleass would be moved as a Unique Unit offered by Venice “Italian Antichi Stati”.

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Sounds like a very cool idea and it’s a good compromise for people like me who wanted to see an Austrian civ :+1:

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Thank you. I wanted to see the Prussians civ…

I think such a compromise would be the most okay for people who wanted a spilit of umbrellas civs (Germans civ, Italians civ and Indians civ); developers and for people who don’t want any spilit.

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Indians civ is definitely more difficult to divide civ within civ. I think all content based on British Raj should be transferred to British Consulate (it would replace standard British units). The brand new Unique Units that would appear in place of the British Raj-based units would be those that would come from different parts of India. Of course, that would be far too little to represent India.

The second thing to represent India in a better way would be to simply add Minor Civilizations from the Indian Subcontinent - their number should be a minimum of 7 (Mughal, Punjab, Bengal, Tamil, Kannada, Maratha and Nepal).

I think India is a tough one. It’s a subcontinent and so as an ‘umbrella civ’ it’s a rather broad, euro-centric view that it’s all self-contained. At least the Prussians/Austrians/etc are contained as Germans, within Europe - if the Germans were like the Indians, they would be the whole of Europe.

I think it’s fairly well established that the Indian civ is just the British East India Company, despite the Mughal flag and Akbar the Great as leader! As much as there is a wealth of really interesting and powerful kingdoms and empires going on in the Indian Sub Continent, I think we have to ignore them and just focus on the Mughals being the current ‘India’. As you have mentioned, Minor Civs are the way to deal with the Marathas and other powers, otherwise it’s just going to get convoluted.

As the Mughals, we’d need a few replacements to the wider, Indian units that were part of the East India Company/British Raj and very out of place (and somewhat offensive? India is just portrayed as under the thumb of the British from the get-go!).

Mughals - should be a cavalry-focus civ with mediocre infantry.
Sepoys should be replaced with Banduqchis
Gurkas for Najib as their skirmisher types (Mughals had nothing to do with Gurkas apart from fighting them).

Other changes:
Caravansei become a Tavern equivelent (I mean, that is essentially what it was!)
Stables (original name!) replaces the old Caravansei
Rocketeers should be a more accessable siege trooper for them - they were super common.
Sowars should be riding horses.

Perhaps the British East India Company should be a special Consulate option (much in the same way as Japan’s isolation) called Company Rule? To ‘kick out’ the East India Company ally, the terminate Foreign Relations button becomes a ‘Sepoy Rebellion’ Revolt tech which severs ties and spawns a group of Sepoys. Again, like Japan’s Isolation option and it’s unit selection, the East India Company, differing from just allying with the British, enables the Company’s range of units - i.e the Sepoys and Gurkas among others available to train from the Consulate, singuarly and in batches.

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I think the Indians should be represented by separating into two separate civs: Mughal and Maratha.

Mughals
The Mughal would be the “Muslim India”, with Afghan influence. Their military roster have poor but tough infantry (high hp, low attack) but good cavalry. Specifically, they would consist of the following:

  • Shamsherbaz (Replace Rajput): an armored archaic sword-and-shield footman.
  • Sepoy: a tough musketeer. (The Mughals seems to have used this term before the British.)
  • Banduqchis (Replace Gurkha): a slow firing skirmisher.
  • Sowar: a well armored heavy but slow cavalry unit. (They are different from the current Sowars, which are very fragile cavalry.)
  • Purbiya (Replace Zamburak): a camel mounted dragoon unit.
  • Bahar Vanguard: Very heavy cavalry unit with charged archer attack. Can only ship from Home City.

Marathi
The Marathi would be the “Hindu India”, with Rajput influence. Their military should have good infantry specialized in melee and weak cavalry (low hp, but very fast). Their roster could consist of the following:

  • Mavale Hillman: Fast melee infantry (akin to a faster pikeman).
  • Pata Swordsman: Melee specialist with fast and high attack, good HP and melee resist. (This should use the current Rajput asset.)
  • Vita Thrower: Fast very short-ranged (4-6 range.) skirmishers with good melee attack. (Should barely beat Age 2 crossbows/skirms.) Vita is a spear-with-a-rope that can be retrieved after thrown.
  • Karanatak Arquebusier: High HP, 18-range arquebusier.
  • Shiledar: A medium HP, high attack heavy cavalry. (With a speed of 7).
  • Bargi: Light but very fast javelin cavalry.
  • Gardi Infantry: Musketeer with very high melee attack. Can only ship from Home City.
  • Urumi: Melee specialist with splash damage specialized against all infantry. Can only ship from Home City.

Otherwise, they can share the elephant and artillery roster.

In addition, we can get two minor civs:
Bengals: This should replace the Bhakti, since it feels weird to have religious groups as minor civs (unless they really had state-rivaling political power, like the Sikh and maybe the Zen Buddhists). The Tiger Claw unit can be replaced by the Bengal Paik.
Mysorean: This would be a new minor civ, with the special unit being the Mysorean Rocketeer.

Going off tangent, we can now have two Indian mercenaries:
Gurkha: This should replace the Arsonist (which should be an outlaw). Maybe they can gain some extra melee attack due to their kukri knife.
Pindari: This should replace the Jat Lancer (as they were only hired by the British). They can have the 7.5 speed of the current Sowar.

Finally, these rosters also avoid the use of the terms Tufangchi and Jezailchi, and frees the term Zamburak, making them available for a potential Persian civ.

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Unit suggestions seem great, however Devs have stated that they won’t be splitting India.

I’d really want Marathas however I think there’s no chance of India being a number of nation.

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A bit of a shame, given that the Mughal are currently essentially the British East India Company with camels and elephants. The Maratha are somehow outlaws? (See Maratha Catamaran.)

I wonder if the reason they won’t split the Indians have anything to do with the wonder system?

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I don’t really agree with the details of your concept but I like the overall idea.

I don’t like the 5th age choice thing.
I think you should start as the HRE but then choose between 4-5 German states that existed after Napoleon.
So Prussia and Austria-Hungary would be the obvious ones but other states like Saxony, Bavaria or Württemberg were relatively big before the German unification.

The German Confederation (that was very unsuccessful in reality) could be a revolutionary option like the French Revolution giving you the modern 3 colour flag.

There could also be a similar revolution for Russia based on the unsuccessful 1905 revolution.

Also it should be called states like it does for Mexico or the US because that’s what they are referred to in English.

For Italy they could just be called cities.

When was this stated? I’m aware they stated they won’t be splitting Germany, but India is something else entirely and they’ve already split India in AoE2 before, so it’s not unheard of in the series.

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Yeah, I think that’s the most annoying bit - that Maratha are seen as outlaws when in reality they were a very formidable power!

I personally think it’s because maybe it’s too much of a change from the original civs developed by Ensemble - it’s probably a combination of respect to them, not wanting to change/rename/split the original civs out of confusion for the majority players (i.e. the ones not on here!) as well as essentially changing an original civ and creating new civs alongside (no matter how easy it’s dressed up as) when their resource could be better spent elsewhere.

But even with that in mind, I would like them to ‘refine’ India and make them their own civ, rather than a British outpost!

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Well guys to sum up,

the cultural and economic aspect of India was common,
and the military aspect should change as per the Empire/kindom/geography chosen.
How to implement this ? I m still thinking :stuck_out_tongue:

So, I’m basing things on these TIME PERIOD and Map :

NOTE : Later british will limit other europeon to coasts cities and trade. And use the notorious “Divide & Conquer” to Rule or ###### / Treaty with local Rulers. And then the rest is history.

The major Powers in AOE3 timelines were :

  • Mughals : Name sake/declining power, Dominated by Marathas. Had gunpowder stuff thanx to old rich days. During Rich & powerful days (1500-1600) Akbar, had the famous rivalry against the Rajput King of Mewar: Maharana Pratap.
    (Wonder : Agra Fort, Taj Mahal)

  • Marathas : The Ever Rising power with Agile, fast Troops and legendary heavy Cavaly

  • British : Encroaching lands in South & Bengal, winning political favours from local rulers.

  • Rajputs : No one ever did / nor will, mess their regional influence in 1000 years, but it was & will remain regional. Legendary in face to face and melee combats. High Moral code of
    conduct.
    (Wonder : Tower of Victory, Karni Mata)

  • Sikhs : They rose against the Mughals, Fended of Perrsians/Afghans, Resisted British. Impressed Brits didn’t want to mess with them, allied with them, until their fall. Great cav, courage and discipline

Secondary strong powers with great regional and political influence were :

  • French - Trying compete out Brits on eco & military, and trying to win pilitical favours

  • Hyderabad - Declining Mughals allow him to be greedy of Power and Richness
    (Wonder : Charminar Gate)

  • Mysoore - They have their own internal problems but Brits are about to give them a dent. Urumis are result Kalariyapattu Martial Art, found in southern India here.

  • Ahoms - Never let the Mughals enter their prestine Hilly lands of North East India.

  • Gorkha - Similar to Sikhs, British got impressed with their skills. Recruited them.

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Actually you know what - I retract that. I swear there was reference to the India split however I cannot find anything in the forums. I believe it it may have been just the German split which 100% did get a response from Devs (apologies!).

With that in mind, I’d very much would love a split, however I think some of those reasons still stand. AoE2 Indian split was grand however the difference between 2 & 3 are night and day - an AoE3 Indian split is a DLC in itself - a refined Mughal Empire, a completely new Maratha Empire civ and minor civs of Kingdom of Mysore, Bengal (Sultanate existed for a bit before being absorbed by Mughals), Kingdom of Nepal and Sikh Empire, along with an East India Company Consulate option (private, non-national company ally) You’d also probably want the Persians to make it in said hypothetical DLC as Mughals were rather Persianized and were share some elements.

Sooooo, a 2.5 civ DLC :sweat_smile:

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Sounds like a good DLC. I want something similar to happen with the North American Natives - Starting with India, an arguably more popular civ, would be a good place to start to see how well it’s recieved.

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The problem with Indian DLC in AOE3 timeline is , the military aspects would have to be mixed and intermingled of each other. And it wont become a feasible DLC civs, like successfully done in AOE2

I think if Indians were split into Mughals and Marathas (and maybe the EIC remaining as a third civ) they could be given access to revolutions or a similar mechanic to represent other Indian people.
For Mughals: Bengal, Punjab, Rajputana, Hyderabad
For Marathas: Tamil Nadu, Karnataka/Mysore, Hyderabad (yeah, they would be here twice) and maybe Ceylon or Andhra
Other people such as the Gorkhas and Assamese could appear as minor civ, even though minor Asian civs are usually religious rather than ethnic groups.

4 Likes

A thing to notice is that von Clausewitz said that Viena is the heart of Germany in his Fortresses second chapter. Maybe you could include that

I’m actually okay with keeping India mostly the same but rejiggering the roster to better reflect the subcontinent’s internal diversity.

Barracks:
Maval: Maratha foot archer. Slightly higher movement speed but less base damage.
Rajput: Identical to what it already is.
Sepoy: Identical to what it already is.
Chekavar: Heavy Hindu swordsman from Kerala. Akin to a Doppelsoldner.
Gurkha: Identical to what it already is.

Stable (rename the Caravanserai):
Kshatriya: Replaces the Sowar. Incredibly fast but somewhat frail Lancer-type cavalry. On a horse but NOT a camel.
Lokar: Professional Nair ranged cavalry on a horse that replaces the Zamburak but does mostly the same thing.
Mahout Lancer: Identical to what it already is.
Howdah: Identical to what it already is.

Castle:
No changes

Home City:
No changes