Ofc it’s a nerf, the civ bonus of vietnamese is practically already a TB with free cartography for all.
Only, IF you already have access to unlimited gold.
There are some civ combis where making imp skirms makes total sense, lige with dravidians eg.
You should maybe read the patchnotes 
Oh that’s true, didn’t realize that!!
Put in this way, the switch would be a nerf. Not an incisive one, btw
Yes yes you’re right, but still, it makes more sense to be their TB and that’s it, this is a suggestion for way before the latest patch.
If I’m dravidians in the late game why go for imperial skirms onestly when I can make arbalests or EA?
In team games, if played as they are supposed to, you have access to gold, so it really does not make much sense… if you don’t have access to gold, and your enemy does, you have already lost, and it won’t be the imperial skirms to save you.
Yeah let’s make it free at this point…
Saving a 125 food just on feudal age is more than what they save now on castle age, it would be OP in any map…
This is actually a nerf… italians arbs are already among the best in the game in post imp, they can consistently beat etiopians arbs and are on the same level as the viets one, that on top of an already strong post imp.
On the other side, delaying even more a tech that can be researched in castle for the xbows, or while aging up for a condo switch is a nerf, as it would hurt the timing.
If you want to buff their late game, give them SE.
Those are fine, maybe for the GC make it +10 HP, and slightly cheaper…
Vietnamese AI still does this btw.
And good for Island maps after landing as well. If one of your teammate who focused only on water, manages to land, s/he doesn’t need to invest into upgrading units.
Just start by buffing paper money again. That will affect mostly low-mid elos without improving Jordan’s performance…
If 25% is too much then 20 would be more than fine. Remember i nerfed the uni and dock discount by 8%
Pavise in Imperial would make silk Road more impactful in team games at least and making It +1/+2 would buff the condos as well and help their geno crossbows with law damage and range than arbalest a bit against skirms
8% nerf on techs that come in castle and imp would do little to a +10% buff on early feudal, and even to just +5%, saving more food on advancing on feudal is big, it means that you can click earlier and still have the same eco of your opponent.
We are talking of reaching feudal with 125 food more, and needing 200 food less to click to castle, those are 4 free scouts. With 5% it is better, but still very strong, as you would age up with 100 food more, and need 160 less, which is about 3 and a half scouts.
On arabia, in the second scenario you are giving them 65 food (without factoring the gold) in feudal for 39 resources lost on ballistics in late castle age, you see that the timing makes a huge difference, as 65 more food during feudal is worth more than 39 resources in mid castle age.
Besides, you didn’t even consider the fishing ships discount, on water maps saving more food in feudal is huge, as you could age up super fast and compensate the vills “lost” early with fishing ships.
I personally wouldn’t touch the age up/dock-uni balance, it’s too messy and delicate to be balanced correctly.
Pavise in imp would mean that their xbows in castle age are just generic xbows… right now they are decent with a cheaper ballistics and the possibility of getting pavise, remove that and they just get a small discount in mid castle, which isn’t much for an archer civ…
Besides, italian arbs are already the best in late game, taking the same hits of a viets arbs, so they are already the best, as without micro already can beat ethiopians and britons arbs. Delaying the upgrade, for making it better at a field where is already better won’t make any sense…
And for GC, they would still be countered by skirms, as their arbs, since it’s not about the damage taken by arbs, but the fact that skirms counter them cost effective.
For condos again I prefer to have it castle age, as condos are effective in fast imp rush, so I prefer having the upgrade to research while aging up than having to wait imp.
You want to buff Italians, there are other ways:
I mean, those are just ideas from the top of my head which are at least safer.
In my humble opinion basically all sugestions you made are way stronger then what i proposed…
I mean, italians now have 15% Age up discount, and they are basically a low B tier (below average) civ in any pro player tier List, so it’s not like 5% more will suddenly make them new mongols level of aggressive…
I forget about ship discount that could be nerfed to 10% as well to compensate the buff
Also no Italians arbs are among the weakest. Yeah they are good in Archer shootout, but mayans cheapers archers, britons range, are way better, ethipians faster FR means they are better against any target, and yeah their tankiness is similar to Vietnamese arbs, but their arbs can tank a mango shot, while Italians can’t, and all civ mentioned obtained these buffs FOR FREE while Italians Need a Castle and a UT, which is way different
If it was a free buff starting from Feudal age i would agree on its strenght but as it stands, i would pick saracens +2 damage vs buildings and 20% cheaper portuguese/koreans over Italians Simply cause they are cheaper and help in the moment when crossbows are strong, which is the Castle Age timing
Ok, so even considering that britons, ethiopians, koreans, mayans, portoghese, saracens, vietnamese (and some of them are questionable…) it would mean that italians arbs are the 8th best arbs… in a game with 49 civs… still seems like a respectable archer civ to me.
Onestly it might be, I just write them randomly… the point was that there are other way to buff the civ, and that you didn’t though it through beside adding some percentages here and removing some percentages there…
And who say so? +5% means that feudal age would cost 100 food less instead of 75 food less, 25 food might seem nothing, but it’s actually a lot in the dark age, and more important that less than 40 resources lost in mid castle age. My point is that the 8% nerf in mid castle age cannot be compared to a 5% in the early game.
And that without considering the fast imp into condos and cheaper gunpowder ########ities…
You want 25% cheaper age up? Fine the bonus itself it’s not broken, it’s broken combined with the rest of the italian civ. Put the italians through an heavy re-design like the Indians and you can have your 25% discount on age up, it’s not enough to remove some percentage point though…
Have you even considered that is only on arabia?, on water maps Italians are already a big titan here, on arena they are quite strong too, and on Hybrid maps Italians are also quite good too.
Buffing Italians that much is asking to make the civ completely broken on the other maps.
I proposed 5% more discount Age up but nerfed dock tech and i can add Nerf to fishing ships discount, Just because i want a balanced civ.not a civ that Is strong only on water
Oh and by the way portuguese here received a net buff while still maintaining all their strenght on water and even buffed with berry bonus
As i’ve already said, the 25% might be too much yes but 20% definitely is doable especially if you Nerf other aspects like water play
But as mentioned earlier, portuguese received a net buff that makes them able to go Feudal at 17vills, while having all other bonuses, and no one seem to care one bit about them being possibly problematic, so you might also be overreacting to this 5% buff that is also compensated by a Nerf…
Also, this “fast imp into condos” i admit i’ve almost never so used because condos are not a strong unit outside countering gunpowder. I would hardly consider it an asset of the civ…now if the condos got a decent buff then maybe, but as it stands now they are basically a super niche unit
What?
Have I missed something.
I am just a bit sad that Devs didn’t decide to make the Feitoria a one-use building and moved it to castle age. Imo this would have been a better “targeted” buff, also more playing into the civs identity.
The Berry to wood stuff is cool and makes interestind Buildorders, but it’s not appearant why this went to Portuguese. Also the better Buildorders actually makes them especially better in those maps where they are actually already good. Namely closed maps and water.
Whilst a single castle age Feitoria would also be great especially on agressive maps where you often can’t really afford to boom. And a single Feitoria would take away that oppressive Lategame of Portuguese, as you can’t make a full eco just off one Feitoria.
Survivalist just put a build order guide today. It’s very tight but It works
Is there any followup to this buildorder? 11
Edit: Ah interesting. Didn’t expected this to be enough for a scrush.
But cool. Makes Scrushing now totally viable for Portuguese. Why not playing scouts into Knights with them?
And they could even make an Archer transition in feudal if they liked.
It’s only a bit tight on food after the initial scrush, this might be a weakness that could give other civs opportunities to punish that very fast uptime.
Maybe not using cheaper archer in Feudal is not a good idea.
Probably that’s better.
Portuguese is now really a versatile civ that can do all openings and have some bonus for all of them. Cheaper militia and archer for Drush/M@ → Archer/FC, or Berry and cheaper units for Scout → Archer or Scout → Knight.
Castle Age castle technology for ships is still shit though, especially if you hardly ever play water maps (guilty). Would love to see this replaced with something more useful.
I also tried to think about other civs that could benefit the most from the portuguese TB.
In imp it’s kind of clear, that’s probably the Paladin Upgrade which is the most Important there.
But what techs do we have in castle age that take kinda long? Techs that are used in TGs?
Ofc Elite Skirm would come to mind, but this isn’t usedful in TGs usually.
What I can think of is actually Bohemians Chemistry. This could indeet be a very nice powerspike to use as Chembows need only 30 shots to kill a Knight opposed to the usual 40. But idk if the combo of Portuguese Bohemians is so strong given that both civs play so similar. You usually want civs with different strengths in your team.
Otherwise the time savings for the TC techs are ofc nice for all the boomer Pocket civs like Cumans, Teutons, Poles, Hindustanis or Persians. As getting up with 1 more Vill to castle age can make a huge difference there.
Ah, and I also calced the new Booming Potential of Portuguese with the new bonus. They are now kinda aligned with other Archer civs like Italians, Dravidians or Vietnamese.
So far Portuguese are 5/5 in TGM…
I don’t think this comes down just to the Berry Bonus, but it’s interesting thatthe civ sees more use now and is even successfull even on non-water maps.
Hope that Hera doesn’t bans it in the Final. But will be likely. He seemingly doesn’t want to deal with new builds in tourneys until he has figured them out completely.
Hopes are that he prepares something with them on his own, but I don’t think they are really so strong that he thinks he can catch liereyy of guard there.
Portuguese is much stronger in team games but I dont think it needs to be banned
