I think it will be more useful than now if it shoot like burst mode. Cheiroballista is not very useful if the arrows spread like it does now.
A big part of the problem is Atlantean counter units, especially this one are designed to fall off HARD after age 2. The Cheiroballista does not benefit enough from Kronos’s bonuses to warrant further use, and it does not get any real mythic bonuses until age 4, as despite it now existing as an archer/seige hybrid and it would really love Oricalcom Mail, and would really benefit from it, even more so than Both the Arcus and Turma, given it is intended as a hard counter to infantry, and its relatively short range and low speed.
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Kronos has 3 age up choices (1 for each age) that can have a effect on Cherioballista with a mythological tech.
Leto: Volcanic Forge increases pierce armor of Cheiroballista
Hyperion: Heroic Renewal increases Hitpoints and give health regeneration to Cheiroballista (Hero)
Helios: Petrification increases hack armor of Cheiroballista
That is stats I got with them from a previous version of the game they now are better then that.
Petrification doesn’t kick in until age 4, and both of the others affect all other units and/or heroes as well, meaning there is no real reason to use them over Arcus.
Those upgrades are for everyone else. Even if those upgrades are applied, cheiroballistas are still too weak.
I think Contarius and Arcus should not have bonus damage like Murmillo.
The Atlanteans already have the Counter Barracks units unlocked in Classical Age.
This change would keep all units relevant.
The same does not apply to other pantheons like the Greeks because they only unlock their counter unity in Heroic Age.
I know those mythological techs effect other units too the point is Cheiroballista have more then just 1 mythological tech that improves them it doesn’t matter if it is a more general improving tech or a more specific one.
In The Titans Expansion Volcanic Forge didn’t effect Cheiroballista and they couldn’t become Heroes to then be buffed by Heroic Renewal. They have more improvements in Retold then ever before to improve them making them potentially better then ever before.
Cheiroballista cost to train and turn into Heroes as well as the amount of population they take up are what is holding them back from being used more.
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They used to be stronger before retold though.
They used to fire 5 arrows (now 4) and do 4 damage (now 3), but they had a smaller modifier vs. Infantry.
So they used to be more of an all-round unit.
They look like they have 5 arrows (3 in the unupgrade version) in their model and on their icon though.
Maybe Medium/Heavy/Champion upgrades should increase the number of arrows instead of adding damage.
Giving them 1 Crush Damage per Arrow in Heroic or Mythical Age (maybe with Engineers) would be a cool way to make them more viable in the late game but that would eat into the Atlantean identity of having bad siege.
I still think it would be better to remove the Infantry modifier from the Arcus to give the Cheiroballista a purpose in Heroic and Mythic Age.
Generally speaking the Atlantean gods tend to underfocus on Human (combat) units, especially in the Classical age- To remedy this, I’d move Weightless mace to Prometheus, Give Oceanus an upgrade to Turma in its place, and Give Leto an upgrade to the Cheiroballista. Said Upgrade could increase attack, increase the number of attacks based on whether it is Medium, Heavy, or champion, and/or decrease population cost.
I don’t think this is good. The archers have this small bonus to infantry so I think its better to keep it because its intuitive for the players (the same for the cavalary bonus against archer)
Better to simple give more bonus against infantry to ballista. Its the counter barracks, so make it counter harder.
Arcus had no bonus damage before Retold and Contarius had a lot less.
But not only that also all cavalry got their Pierce armour improved and all infantry had their melee armour improved (excluding counter units).
So even if you remove the modifiers they will still counter Infantry even more then they did in the old AoM because of the armour changes.
If Murmillo can work without bonus damage then why not the other Military Barracks units.
They still soft counter the unity they are supposed to counter.
If you want a hard counter you go to the Counter Barracks, I think that is a logical and easy to read design.
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I know, but this was a good change, as it’s intuitive for the series and players in general to reinforce the archer good against infantry and cavalary good against archer. Why you think this is bad?
Murmillo was turned into a generic all around infantry like the Ulfsark turned into too. Why you want the 3 units without bonus…? You want the 3 having the same general role but having different counters?
Yeah, that’s why one have 25% bonus damage and the other we put 400% or more, no?
Other games in the series?
In AoE2 the Milita, Knight and Archer Lines don’t have bonus damage against each other. They only counter each other based on other stats but it’s generally not a strong counter in any way.
In AoE4 the Man at Army, Knight and Crossbow also don’t have this counter dynamic, the Crossbow even does bonus damage vs. the Knight.
So coming from AoE4 it seems more logical that the Classical/Feudal Age units do bonus damage but the Heroic/Castle Age ones don’t.
Even in AoE3 where almost all units have bonus damage most meele cavalry units like Hussar don’t do any bonus damage.
The counter system is here partially done by using Melee/Range resistance.
AoMR has stronger armour differences between units. Cavalry have more Pierce Armour and Infantry have more Melee Armour then in AoMEE, so the counter system is already stronger then in the past without bonus damage.
That’s the thing, they would not all become generic.
The differences in armour, damage type, range and speed makes those units always play very different, even without bonus damage.
Arcus are currently so good vs. Infantry that they completely steal Cheiroballistas job.
Oh, you see the Contarius as the Knight instead of the Horseman, as AoE4 have the triangle with bonus with the spearman, archer and horseman exactly like AoM and the Man at Arms being generalist like the murmilo.
Aoe 2 have it too with spearman, archer and light cavalry (except that cavalry lack the bonus) with the militia being the generalist.
For me Atlantean lack a Knight unit like the ######### Jarl and Elephant that are the stronger generalist cavalry, they only have the horseman that are good against archer. (you can see by their speed)
The Aoe4 player will think the Atlantean horseman do extra damage to archer.
Yeah, but the entire point here appears to be if you want the Contarius to be the Horseman or the Knight.
Of course they will be more generalist. If you just remove the bonus, you are just nerfing them, so you have to increase their damage, which means they become better against everything else, just like the Raiding Cavalry have 7.5 damage while the Jarl have 10.
Need more infantry bonus to Cheirobalistas then! Even the charioty got the infantry bonus… so I think archers will keep having them to make them standard stats.
Yes.
They unlock the unit in the Heroic Age and not the Classical Age and they already have the Turma.
Yes to some degree.
They currently have a +50% bonus which is relatively strong.
I generally dislike how most units are getting some kind of bonus damage now in AoM.
That is something that is not needed and AoE2 also clearly proves that.
As long as you have dedicated counter units (like the Axeman for Egyptians) your other units don’t also need bonus damage.
I do think the Greeks are an exception though since they unlock their counter units in Heroic Age and need some way to counter units in Classical Age.
Not sure if Cheiroballista really need a buff, they are currently just too overshadowed by Arcus that can do all of the same things but better.
The only thing they have going for them is bonus damage vs. ships.
But they also have only 50% Crush armour so they take more damage from more different units.
I think the best thing would be to give them a little Crush damage themselves with a Heroic/Mythical Age technology to make them a little closer to Norse Ballistas.