So I checked aoe stats today.
No mater how you filter.
1v1 or team
All elo or 1200+
Chinese are absolute trash by a very large margin the wost civ in the game
Revert the nerf. It was clearly a mistake
13 Likes
I think they need a split. Time to split it to 3 or 4 civ like what Indian did
9 Likes
they were one of the worst pre nerf as well
7 Likes
How? Isnot chinese are favourite of top level players?
1 Like
Yes, they’re very good for the very, very top players, but for basically everyone else, that top performance doesn’t translate very well at all.
6 Likes
Chinese is one of the top civs on Arabia. Just go watch Hera, Viper or some other top player to play them and learn the opening.
3 Likes
The opening is not the issue. This is easy to learn.
In my opinion the problem is more than they are neither good for early feudal aggression nor do they have a powerful late game in terms of their available units.
Chinese win-condition instead is to first play a bit defensive, then gain a small eco and tech lead mid-feudal and permanently maintaining and increasing the lead in order to win before mid imperial. But as soon as this lead is lost and/or they cannot close out the game in time, they’re very unimpressive.
The problem is now that most players do make quite a lot mistakes, only top players can consistently maintain small advantages throughout the game. Whereas average players tend to be either good at the early aggression kind of play or the more defense eco-approach into favorite late game combo. Neither of which Chinese are good at.
Furthermore, decision-making regarding army composition is tricky with Chinese, simply because they can do everything in principle, but are not very good at anything in particular. Most other civs have at least a clear plan A pertaining their strongest unit combination. Again, this is a civ trait that is beneficial on a high level, but detrimental for average players.
19 Likes
Chinese will have better eco than most with couple vills more, if you can do the opening. And then they can do everything. You can open both stable and range. And switch if needed thanks to cheaper techs. Options are what makes them a great civ and it’s great that there are civs that are harder to learn, but great once you nail them. You can always play easy civs like Franks if Chinese is too hard.
1 Like
Honestly even for the absolute top 0.1% of players Chinese are now solidly mediocre. They’re like 9th to 15th for them, nowhere near number one.
My idea was to make Great Wall instantly upgrade all their palisade walls to stone walls. This even has some historical backing; the Chinese were inventors of a method which was putting stone over earthen embankments(IE, stone walls over palisades) which actually make walls that were more resistant to cannonfire than european methods.
This buff would mostly be helpful at lower skill levels, since higher level players are much more able to break through weak points in walls. And as a one time bonus, it wouldn’t be oppressive, outside potential meme strategies in walling your enemy in…which to me would be hilarious, but not OP.
2 Likes
If what you say is true, it seems that 99% of the players base cannot do the opening properly. And for the top 1% who can do the openning, they cannot use Chinese better eco + open tech tree + cheaper tech as an advantage to get a good win rate (<51%)
3 Likes
Your statement relies on a lot of ifs. And that’s exactly the same what I’m saying. Yes, the civ can be good if you play them perfectly. But only then. And it’s not about the opening. Any half-decent player can practice a particular build-order up to early/mid feudal. It’s about maintaining the advantage you gain by the opening, throughout the entire game until you close it out. Because you don’t really have anything else going for you.
The flexibility and the option to do easier tech switch due to cheaper techs is also a double-edge sword, simply because it tempts players to do too many things at once.
2 Likes
Yes, I envision that the current Chinese could be split into 4 civs:
-
Han or Hua: basically Chinese renamed, largely identical to the current Chinese civ, though could give them access to BBC to help them better cope with siege in late game.
-
Jurchens: representing the Sushen, Mohe, Jurchen, and many other Tungusic tribes that once existed in Northeast China, and also covers the Jin empire. Many others think they should be a cavalry or cavalry archer civ, but I envision them as a siege civ.
-
Dians/Bo/Baipu: covers the Nanzhao/Dali kingdoms in Southwest China as well as many other native South China tribes. I envision them as an archer and monk civ.
-
Tanguts: covers the Xixia kingdom in Northwest China as well as parts of eastern and northern Tibet. They could be a cavalry and monk or camel and monk civ.
1 Like
The problem with the chinese before the nerf was that they could upgrade heavy camels, bracer and chemistry at 20% discount. That was very strong. True. But required good timing and successfully out-counter-transitioning (if that word exists lol) the opponent. Which is very hard to do.
The nerf was trying to tone down this side of the bonus. Just to slow the chinese down and open small windows more often than before. On the other hand, high elo players are better at tech switching and transitions than your average joe; that’s why the chinese has always had good winrate for them. And even now they still do.
Anyway, now the thing with them is that they feel so boring to play and most importantly stressful. In feudal it’s like they don’t have a bonus. In castle age, it’s okeyish for bow saw and heavy plow, but feels like it’s not enough for all the other techs. For example, sanctity and blacksmith techs. In imperial age, it feels nice. It’s not too strong like before, it’s just right.
The way I see it, they need a buff for feudal age. I mean, they always felt like they needed a very small buff in feudal age before the last nerf, but now in this patch the chinese need a “normal” buff in that period of the game.
Personally, I’d either take one of these routes:
- Give them a military bonus in feudal.
- Or set the discount bonus to 15% flat.
The first option is self-explanatory. And could even help with the winrate in lower elos.
The second option actually addresses how they used to feel a little bit weird in feudal age before the nerf. In castle age, they regain the 15% they used to have and felt perfect. In imperial age, they keep the 15% they have right now and actually feels in a decent spot.
5 Likes
They’ve always been worse at mid and lower elos. But the best civ by far in tournaments. Civ has a learning curve, not easy for players who are too used to the Frank/Mongol fast builds. The nerf by itself is nearly negligible.
3 Likes
Now filter it for S tier tournaments and 2400+ elo and check the result.
They need some adjustment. I think a flat 10% tech discount will be a good start.
1 Like
Currently no S-tier tournament after Chinese nerf. Also, only 2400+ Elo result lack sample size and ladder result in pro level aren’t meaningful(e.g. Viper often entertain his viewer during ladder game. Not competition)
That’s just even more hard nerf. Usually only a handful of tech researched but in imp much more tech researched.
I advocate former suggestion of flat 15%.
Reason we say not much people play at the top level, @@ and low, and middle level Chinese is hard for play. Beside Another byzantin they need bloodline:v
We can wait 1 year to see. My bet Chinese will still be at top 5 Arabia civ.
15% is too big in Feudal for Pros.
1 Like
Then make the bonus what it was before. I don’t care too much about what the pros say. They’re only a small minority of players.
5 Likes
Is a minority but for that one Chinese were OP and tournament stats back up that, Chinese always were bad on lower ELO because of the start and the tech discount nerf hardly impacts them.