Chinese is weak!

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Sorry for you.I think some country balance so bad.
To India,Sweden and Chinese.

1:India now the Agra Fortress is good in the game.The India can choose Rush or defense.Sending deck and free to get villager let their Economics good.At least not bad!Sepoy although -10 HP,but now it’s still op!And it units are comprehensive.Sepoy,Skirmisher,Cavalry and Ranged Cavalry.Good War elephant!!I don’t say,it’s tears!

2:Sweden have so good Musketeer in age 3 and age 4.Nearly Skirmisher,but don’t worry the Cavalry!And have good melee!(19damage).I think they Musketeer Armor is 0.3,please let it become 0.2.And Melee damage become 18

3:China.It’s my mainly country.I only tell your rhythm is bad!Maybe you will say:Chinese 16 settlers go to age2,send 700 Gold and wood go to 3.It’s FF good!I will ask.other can’t do this?Why Chinese will FF?
Because the age 2 is weak.No Musketeer and Good Cavalry civilization harass enemy ability is weak.I I agree Chinese have 7 Stepper Riders.But,Could 7 Stepper Riders be beat 3 Hussars??And if 7 Stepper Rider died,How to create it?Creating standard army?3 Chukonus using harass???
Old han army’s 3 Chukonus and 3 QiangPikemans.Cheap 6%-8% than European Crossbow and Pikeman.But,Hitpoint and Damage.I don’t want to say more in age2!
Of course,we can tell Chinese Economics.Do you think its good?
Someone will say Summer Palace=4settlers,Tower=8settlers.Good!I only say.You have money,but no army support you get it!Weakly army,but you give Procrastination Economics.It’s so Uncomfortable
And Chinese age3 Good???Chinese in age3 weakly is in Changdao!!Give you a chance.Let European Musketeer being replaced by Changdao.What do you think?
Someone think I am nonsense!!
Okey.Looking the Official match!Chinese player Paid more micro operation and have some low result.I don’t think it’s fair!It’s a clear fact that China is hard to play and not strong in Age Empire 3 DE

China I give you some suggestions.You only just need to do a little and I’m satisfied
First:Giving Chinese 15 population at hometown.Not 10
Second:Giving Chinese 400 Wood.Not 300 Wood
Third:Giving Chinese 300 Food,Not 200 Food.
4th:Giving Chinese -10% cost for settler
5th:strengthen QiangPikeman and Keshik.No say Keshik DPM high.1.5ROF and base Damage only 8=3.0ROF and damage =16.Do you think Good?And it’s have weakly Hitpoint!Keshik become 10 damage and 120 Hitpoint.QiangPikeman become 8 Damage!
6th:Every village is created.You free to give they a sheep!
7th:Chinese tower wonder free give:200Wood,400Wood,600Wood,800Wood!in age 2,3,4,5
8th:Chinese at start giving 7 settlers!
9th:Chinese Settler Card giving 2 settlers in hometown.Not 1.This ensures at least three farmers.
10th:Changdao Base Hitpoint and Damage become 140HP and 16 Damage

I only need you do one Choose.I am satisfy.Chinese player satisfy.Thanks very much!!

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China.It’s my mainly country.I only tell your rhythm is bad!Maybe you will say:Chinese 16 settlers go to age2,send 700 Gold and wood go to 3.It’s FF good!I will ask.other can’t do this?Why Chinese will FF?
Because the age 2 is weak.No Musketeer and Good Cavalry civilization harass enemy ability is weak.I I agree Chinese have 7 Stepper Riders.But,Could 7 Stepper Riders be beat 3 Hussars??And if 7 Stepper Rider died,How to create it?Creating standard army?3 Chukonus using harass???
Old han army’s 3 Chukonus and 3 QiangPikemans.Cheap 6%-8% than European Crossbow and Pikeman.But,Hitpoint and Damage.I don’t want to say more in age2!
Of course,we can tell Chinese Economics.Do you think its good?
Someone will say Summer Palace=4settlers,Tower=8settlers.Good!I only say.You have money,but no army support you get it!Weakly army,but you give Procrastination Economics.It’s so Uncomfortable
And Chinese age3 Good???Chinese in age3 weakly is in Changdao!!Give you a chance.Let European Musketeer being replaced by Changdao.What do you think?
Someone think I am nonsense!!
Okey.Looking the Official match!Chinese player Paid more micro operation and have some low result.I don’t think it’s fair!It’s a clear fact that China is hard to play and not strong in Age Empire 3 DE

At least,you must give Chinese 300Food.Because,200Food’s China.Maybe will interrupt settlers

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China is really a bit difficult to play. It’s similar to the undead in Warcraft 3. It needs more operation and resource operation. In the era of Fortress, China has a lot of useful cards to mend its disadvantages. What players have to do is to give full play to the potential of this advantage. I admit that China is not strong in the game, and it’s a bit tired to play, but it can bring the game fun to the players, because the players are playing the difficult civilization to defeat other players… Maybe China needs to strengthen.

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Thanks for your help

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China is the weakest Asian faction for sure. Japan is easily one of the strongest factions in the game right now. Both Team and 1vs1. Up until Sweden was released of course, which has some ridiculous design issues, like combining massing 1 unit + artillery, crazy strong boom and fast age up all in one faction.

China was build to be played in Age III. Their Age 2 is terrible, because of how their banner armies work. They start with 1 less villager into Age 2 (since you usually ship Northern Reforms) and they reach Age 2 quite late because the best build includes them building a TP. Unlike other civs, they cannot get by with spending 300 wood on TP + House, they have to gather or find another 90 wood because a village is 90 wood.

Starting Age 2, the 8 Chuko Nu Shipment is weaker than a standard 8 xbow shiment, since Chuko nu are straight up weaker. They cannot boom and they have no good cavalry unit in the 2nd age, only Steppe Riders which cannot be massed. They also have no Musketeer unit without Brit Consulate.

Because of all this, China is late in Age 2 and they are extremely vulnerable in Age 2. While Sweden gets an absurd 800 ressource shipment in the form of leather cannons, China does not even get a 2 Flamethrower shipment, which would still be worse than 700 ressources.

We already talked about Flamethrowers a lot. They have no place in the game. They are overpriced at 170 wood, 170 coin. They cost 4 population, which is not justified at all. They have poor range, only 4.25 speed which means Arsenal upgraded- infantry can just run away. The unit fills the same job as Skirm + Iron flail. It is also countered by artillery because its easily outranged. It should be 3 pop and cheaper, and all Flamethrower shipments should be buffed and easier avilable. Flamethrowers need buffs! Grant them additional range like Abus guns gain additional range with upgrades.

China cannot compete with the strength of India or Japan at all. Both civs can be played very aggressively in Age 2, or they can both play a powerful boom and economic playstyle. They need buffs to their Age 2 and their earlygame, since they have to find or chop wood in every single game since they only start with 300 wood.

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Yes,I agree.Chinese player win it’s they good operation.Identical Rank.Chinese is weak.

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Chinese in aoe 2 are like the S tier civ.

But in aoe 3 ya they are underwhelming but really deadly at early game.

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Agreed that Chinese army are weak, they have 3 unit to counter cavalry but none of it are good at it. Looking at Qiang and Changdao one may think that Qiang is pikeman replacement while Changdao is Halb replacement but it’s wrong, both Qiang and Changdao are Pikeman with different cost. Both unit require 3 card to be a bit better than fully upgraded French Pikeman.

By a bit I mean the comparison between Fully upgraded Qiang, Changdao, French Pikeman, Spanish Tercio in this order, their HP is 287/286/252/300, while their damage vs cavalry in the same order is 96/82/80/96. Even with British Consulate their HP is still below 300 at 297 still one shotted by unupgraded falconet. They also lose in terms of speed as they have no speed upgrade, at least Chandao have 20% resist to not make it totally same as coin costing pikeman.

Meanwhile fully upgraded Keshik have 300 HP or 311 with British consulate, and they deal 87 damage vs cavalry. Every other faction cavalry counter unit are usually able to reach at least 100 damage even Zamburak when fully upgraded is able to reach 147 damage for a 1 pop unit.

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Very nice collection of stats. China units are weaker compared to the standard unit while being lower cost. However, this has issues, because their units are extremely vulnerable to massing artillery. Even Keshiks and Meteor Hammers. Meteor Hammers deal very high damage to artillery and can attack from range, but any competent opponent will still bodyblock and Meteor Hammers have very low HP for a cavalry unit.

Now you look at some of the strong or even “overpowered” civs like France. They are strong throughought the game, from Age 2 onward and have a variety of builds. France gets terryfying with Age IV as their Curassiers become scary, you can get them cheaper and all their artillery will deal 25% more damage from a card upgrade. This is an extremely underrated card, and since the 1vs1 meta is favouring greedy mid- to lategame playstyles at the moment, China cannot even compete. Because they cannot boom, their Age 2 is much worse than any other civ in the game and even though they manage to shine through efficient units, having efficient units doesn’t matter until extremely late into the game, because the hunts and mines will last throughouht the entire 1vs1 match.

Ontop of that China is vulnerable to strong melee cavalry and relies on Manchu shipment in Age 3. China has some big weaknesses, but they don’t have the same strength as other civs like France.

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Yep, china may be below average at the moment, but people are downplaying that civ. They are not as bad as people say thei are.
That civ is really scary af when played by someone who knows what he is doing
If they are left unchecked the mass they can get is just overwhelming. They still have one of the strongest ff timings which even france struggles to hold, simply because making cuirasiers early are not viable and one of the strongest FI builds too.
And regarding they not having any economy, I suggest you look at H20s game vs soldier.
The only game soldier won against h20 was china vs ports, where ports had a full water economy, 2x the eco soldier had and still soldier had a way bigger army.

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This is nothing new, we have talked about how China works and we all know it. Yes they have good fortress shipments, but so have other civs. They get 10 skirms, but their skirms are weaker than european skirms, as are all their units. In fact sending units is vital as China because they are unable to mass a particular unit. Germany can easily mass units via shipments aswell. They are much, much stronger in Age 2 due to their powerful economy after two of their settler Wagon shipments. And of course they can build a Trading Post and a House without having to gather 90 wood.

This is still true. Their economy is bad. They are many villagers behind. However, part of that is made up by the Summer Palace and Porcelain tower. But then again, this is also another drawback. The Porcelain tower to age 3 is worth 8 vills when on food. You don’t have this in Age 2. The Summer palace may be worth 3 vills gathering, but until you get your first army out, China has a weak 400 food crates whereas all other civs would get 400 wood. China has worse economy because they will have fewer settlers in Age 2 and they have more weaknesses in Age 2 which we already talked about.

This game has nothing to do with China’s strength if you watched it closely. The portuguese player had almost no unit production buildigns. When he got attacked, he had a single barracks, which he lost. Any other civ would have done the same and capitalized in the same way. The Port player had a huge economy but failed to make use of it because of poor macro. The rule of RTS is always to amass as many ressources as you can and make use of them. If you can’t spend all your ressources, you deserve to lose.

China has problems that need to be fixed. It is a straight up worse civ than other civs. It maybe comparable in fortress strength, but the rest of the civ falls flat compared to other civs. If this were not the case, they would be played much more in tournaments. But they are not. #

Chinas earlygame is too slow. They only have one great build, that is their fortress. But thats not enough to compete. You need to have strategic variety. You need to be somewhat unpredictable. Civs like France can do all of this. And they don’t have weaknesses like China.

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No to 4, 6, and 7. One of the others might be appropriate, but my personal favorite is 15 pop TCs for china. This opens up potential for 15/15 builds, ensures no TC idling in age 1 for china’s current standard build, and does very little for their military and economy otherwise (which they don’t need). China really just needs some flexibility and QoL improvements for age 1, and this would do it.

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15 pop tc sounds reasonable to be fair, anything else and the civ will be broken

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Starting with more pop is a suggestion that I thought about aswell. Either more pop or 100 more wood to start with. You are basically forced to find a wood treasure, or else you are going to have idle time, which is snowballing the entire game long.

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Your post is useless and rude. If you want to make a case for Japan being forgiving, then go ahead and post in a thread about Japan, we have many of those and many players will agree. But this isn’t about Japan. And don’t try to compare India or Japan with China. Their entire economy and game plan is different. China doesn’t have a Musketeer in Age 2 and doesn’t even have a standard heavy cavalry unit like the Hussar.

China is almost never picked in tournaments where it counts. Its always a spam of European civs, so much in fact we have seen way too many france mirrors. Because these civs age faster than China because of the weakness of China we explained above. These civs get to dicate the pace of the game, which China cannot do. Flamethrowers are a joke of a unit, all their shipments which ship flamethrowers are weak.
Sweden laughs with their 800 ressource value leather cannons which can hold of an almost unlimited amount of infantry behind walls and kiting. Sweden gets to produce Caroleans from 2 Barracks with 0 vills on food without depleting their hunts in late age 2 because their economy is crazy. And come Age IV they have 2 cards which turn Caroleans aswell as Hussars into overpowered versions, with 30% more HP hussars and 25% more HP Caroleans and ranged resist. Their units become even more efficient than Russian or Chinese units after shipping several % bonus cards. And Caroleans are Musketeer, Dragoon and resilient to Skirmishers in one unit.

No matter how you try to spin it, China has many weaknesses, and its still doing worse than other civs in lategame. Their Age 2, especially late Age 2 is the worst in the entire game.

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I think you are a true player

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Don’t tell lies. China is much used all the time even out of tournaments. Don’t compare China to a broken civ like Sweden because that’s not fair. China might be weak in age 2 but it compensates by the fact that they have the strongest FF of the game.

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But,Can you tell me why Chinese FF is great?I ackonwledge Arquebusier is good.But Changdao?Keshik?Qiang Pikeman?Age 2 weak,In age 3 you must have good unit.But they only Arquebusier Cheap.I don’t think Changdao,Keshik,QiangPikeman,MH is cheap.MH have 5 Range but only 217 base HP and 29 Damage.Do you tell me 175 Gold?

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Grossly exaggerated. Its worth less than 8 vills if you set it to wood. It costs 8 vills to build, so you’re losing out on many villager seconds while other civs have Exile Prince. You ignore the fact that China has no villager Shipments in Age 2, which means their eco is worse. This merely evens it out somewhat.

Black Riders exist aswell. Whats your issue? China has no Dragoons, their Keshiks are terrible unless you make it to Age IV and send a Card. They have a huge weakness against heavy cavalry and only their Shipments help against it, since you cannot mass anti-cav.

All heavy cav is good against artillery, this is nothing new. However due to the fact that Meteor Hammers have low hitpoints and higher ranged resist, they themselves are more vulnerable to artillery, because artillery do not deal ranged damage, but explosive damage type. Their hand mortars on the other hand need to be massed to be powerful against artillery. They fire slowly and the projectile is much slower than that of a culverin.

This is not a strength. It makes it harder to micro. Ontop of it, you will need to spend more time upgrading all units seperately. Having to manage less unit types is very easy on the other hand. Look at Sweden, all they build is Caroleans, Culverins, Falconetts and Heavy cannons if they get to Age IV. Its way easier to micro than other civs, which is another reason why people playing Sweden are higher rated than they should be.

You call me out on lies, yet you provide no proof.

I will provide proof that China is barely being played in tournaments. Go to ESOCTV youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDpnRJ_LXufk8-S0k6AMZAg and watch tournament casts. You will barely see any China being played.

I am looking forward to the Goodhouse cup being casted this sunday. We will watch the finals, and we will see some of the best players put on their best performance and they are obviously going to choose the civs which will grant them the best chances to win. I am willing to bet that no one is going to play China. If I am wrong, then I will admit it.

Nonsense. China units may be efficient, but without shipments, they cannot mass Skirms, or Anti-Cav like other civs. They will always have Changdaos or Pikemen which are not Skirmishers and they will always be losing these units to a mass of Skirms and Dragoons without having them deal any damage. So in reality, you are losing ressources because you are losing melee units, unlike other civs which can simply produce one type of unit. Even if their Skirmishers are efficient per cost, China will have less Skirms than other civs after shipments. This makes up for the fact that their Skirms are efficient, because they are outnumbered after shipments.

These units are ony good in direct engagements. However mid to lategame, as in any RTS, is a fight for mapcontrol and small skirmishes but few direct head on engagements. China will have fewer Skirmishers with a bunch of melee units that do nothing but tank damage.

This is a strawman argument and has no place in our constructive discussion. Just like you wanted to bring Japan and India into this discussion to sidetrack from our actual topic.

We never asked for buffs to all China units. We have merely stated the fact that China earlygame is too slow and vulnerable, and many people have suggested solutions such as more wood/food or simply increasing the starting population. We have also asked for buffs and changes to the Flamethrower, since this unit is largely obsolete.

Anyone will understand that these suggestions are hardly an attempt to turn China into an unbeatable civ. And it would be foolish to think that the devs, if they are even going to do any changes at all, are going to suddenly make China overpowered. The recent patchnotes to Aztec for example have shown that reworks can be done if needed, but Aztec hasn’t changed much in terms of power and is far from being overpowered, even though they are now incredibly powerful in Age I.