Problem: Currently the general consensus is that Yuan Dynasty is preferred over Ming Dynasty for its
movement speed bonus that applies to all units except for siege. It’s versatile and provides utility to
both eco and military. Ming Dynasty currently provides a health bonus to all military units
which is decent in a vacuum, but due to the cost of going double Imperial, is often ignored. Going
Yuan is already expensive, but Ming even more so.
Even in team games, the movement bonus is arguably more useful for map control and
reinforcements due to larger maps.
Solution: Make Ming dynasty more appealing in relation to its cost compared to Yuan dynasty by giving it an
additional bonus that focuses on gunpowder units and adding a unique building related to taxes. This
would also be historically accurate as the Ming dynasty had made prolific use of gunpowder
weaponry as well as having a highly bureaucratic government. It also helps that the Imperial Official is
historically based on Ming Dynasty attire. Would also align with China’s identity as Dynasty, Taxes,
Gunpowder civ.
Proposed Changes:
1) Fire Lancer
- Add Gunpowder Tag so it’ll be considered Light Melee Gunpowder Cavalry and will benefit from
proposed Ming dynasty change
*note: one of the challenges for China Mastery already requires you to defeat a number of
enemies with Gunpowder Infantry and Cavalry so it would make sense to give it the
Gunpowder Tag as well. Historically the fire lance was also considered a gunpowder
weapon.
- Charge damage changed from +2 to +10
*note: Fire Lancer’s charge damaged used to be +10. Not sure why it dropped to +2
2) Ming Dynasty
-Add additional bonus: Gunpowder units deal +20% damage (base and bonus damage)
*note: gives identiy to Ming Dynasty armies as durable, hard hitting due to powerful gunpowder
units, and suited for siege warfare as opposed to Yuan Dynasty armies that are mobile
and suited for raids or open field warfare
-New unique building : Tax Bureau
* Unique to Chinese. Zhuxi will not have access due to them already having plenty of cost
saving bonuses
* Limit of 3
* Acts as a tax drop off
* Generate 75g per min as long as an Imperial Official is garrisoned
*note: This is mainly used to offset some of the costs of gunpowder units and going double
Imperial. Pagodas will still generate more resources due to needing a relic. Should
generate more resources than a Japanese Yorishiro due to costing pop space and not
being able to supervise.
Conclusion: Each dynasty should offer a purpose that reflects the stage of the game it’s usually obtained
For example:
1) Tang Dynasty offers increased scout vision at the start of the game to unlock more of the map
from fog of war.
2) Song Dynasty offers increased villager production speed for an eco advantage by getting the eco
online faster.
3) Yuan Dynasty offers increased movement speed for all units except siege to get eco advantages
by reducing traveling time for resource drop offs and military advantages through map control and
eco raids to eventually establish battle lines.
**4) Ming Dynasty offers increased health for all military units and increased damage for gunpowder
units. At this stage of the game, the battle lines should be well established through defensive
buildings such as Keeps and walls. Raids would be less often and securing objectives such as
Sacred sites, heavily defended resource nodes, or just simply brute forcing a base would be
priority.
I believe the devs originally intended for players to go through the dynasties in order of Tang, Song, Yuan, and Ming with a similar idea. This change should still keep to that idea while also allowing players to do alternatives such as going Ming before Yuan if they feel they need to utilize Ming’s durability and firepower to take an objective or breaking a defense and then switching to Yuan to raid or rapidly attack vulnerable points past the defense.
2 Likes
I believe the Ming Dynasty buff for the Chinese civilization doesn’t need changes. However, the unique units and unique buildings unlocked by each dynasty could use some adjustments. The Yuan Dynasty’s Fire Lancer, after being nerfed across multiple patches, has almost vanished from most matchups. Perhaps giving them higher ranged armor would improve their viability. The Ming Dynasty, however, has a more severe issue: advancing to Ming requires a massive investment without fundamentally altering gameplay. Ming lacks a truly distinctive building, and their Grenadier unit still lacks clear role definition and balance. Are they meant to counter infantry or buildings? Their high cost and low practicality make them underwhelming—while they deal AOE damage, they only become effective when massed to a critical scale.
The reason why I suggest an additional bonus for Ming dynasty is because currently it’s very expensive for base Chinese to go double imperial as they don’t have the benefit of Zhuxi’s landmark cost reduction bonus. As it is the final and most expensive dynasty, it should naturally provide the most power spike for the civ. The Grenadier could use some adjustments as well as adding a new unique building for the dynasty would help justify its price. However, that won’t solve the issue of players opting to go Ming just to unlock the unique building and units and then swapping out to Yuan since dynasty units and buildings are unlocked permanently.
By adding some extra perks like gunpowder bonuses, I’m hoping this would give Ming more utility and identity so players may be more inclined to utilize Ming instead of defaulting to Yuan.
In short, I’m hoping for some changes that would make Ming just as if not more compelling than Yuan as it is the final and most expensive dynasty. Also if you look at Zhuxi’s Ming dynasty, it’s technically 2 bonuses since they can have another bonus from Temple of the Sun. I think all of Zhuxi’s Dynasties and especially Ming are designed very well as it’s got a clear purpose of being the dynasty you’d want to end the game with.
As for unique units, I think increasing the ranged armor of Fire Lancers would make it conflict with Horsemen’s purpose as an anti-range unit. Instead I’d focus on what makes a Fire Lancer unique from a Horseman which are its aoe Charge attack and powerful torch damage. Since buffing torch too much could bring back landmark sniping, I’d rather focus more on improving the charge attack. This would also align with China’s identity as a gunpowder civ since the fire lance is a gunpowder weapon unlike the torch.
I think grenadiers are supposed to provide supporting aoe damage with specialization in anti building since they deal Siege damage so they ignore armor. They can also potentially be buffed from Spirit Way when a dynasty unit dies. Maybe they just need a cost reduction.
So maybe instead of an attack bonus for gunpowder, Ming dynasty could produce gunpowder units at a discount.
The Ming Dynasty bonus in China provides a 15% health increase for all units, while the Yuan Dynasty bonus grants infantry and cavalry 15% movement speed. These two bonuses aren’t strictly superior to each other but emphasize different combat approaches. The Yuan’s speed boost better suits harassment and mobile warfare, whereas the Ming’s health bonus favors frontal engagements and attrition battles. The problem with Ming China isn’t its weaker bonus, but rather its prohibitively high cost that prevents most games from reaching this stage. Additionally, the Spirit Way operates strangely - requiring the sacrifice of dynasty units to provide nearby units with attack speed bonuses and health regeneration. Currently, Fire Lancer and Grenadier units are too underpowered; even when I reach the Ming Dynasty, I rarely use them.
In contrast, reaching the Yuan Dynasty is much more cost-effective. Players can quickly mass Palace Guards and leverage the Yuan’s movement speed bonus to harass enemy economic units, which has become a common tactic. Perhaps the Spirit Way mechanic could be reworked to make Ming Dynasty effects more impactful, encouraging players to progress from Yuan to Ming Dynasty instead of staying in Yuan indefinitely
2 Likes
Yea you make a good point. I do agree with the idea that Yuan is for mobile warfare and Ming is for attrition warfare. How about the following changes:
1)Ming Dynasty
-New unique building : Tax Bureau
* Unique to Chinese. Zhuxi will not have access due to them already having plenty of cost saving bonuses
* Limit of 3
* Acts as a tax drop off
* Can garrison 1 Imperial Official each
* Generate 75 gold per min for each building as long as an Imperial Official is garrisoned
*note: This is mainly used to offset some of the costs of going double Imperial. Pagodas will still
generate more resources due to needing a relic. Should generate more resources than a
Japanese Yorishiro due to costing pop space.
2)Spirit Way
- Currect effect changed to activate from all Unique units instead of only Dynasty units. Excludes Siege.
*note: This simply means Palace Guards will also be able to trigger the ability as they are the primary frontline unit for China
- Add an active ability: Ancestral Offerings
* Unlocked only for Ming Dynasty. Changing to another dynasty will lock the ability again.
* Cost 1000 food 500 wood 250 gold
* All military units heal for 5 hp/s for 60 seconds with a 30 seconds cooldown
*note: This ability is meant to give a way to take advantage of Ming’s Health Bonus by letting you heal during or after a fight and and keeps with the theme of the Ming Dynasty supporting frontal engagements and attrition battles
- Palace Guard upgrades and unique tech also included in the landmark
- Fire Lancer gets a new unique tech: Iron Pellets that allows it to do full aoe damage with no fall off on the charge
- Grenadiers gets a shared unique tech: Hard Cased Bombs same as Zhuxi
*note: Since Zhuxi Nest of Bees also got Additional Barrels then it would seem unique tech can be shared and fitting for China as it specializes in gunpowder
3)Greatwall Gatehouse
- Also provides a 15% discount to all gunpowder units
4)Fire Lancer
- Add Gunpowder Tag so it’ll be considered Light Melee Gunpowder Cavalry and will benefit from proposed Greatwall Gatehouse change
*note: one of the challenges for China Mastery already requires you to defeat a number of enemies with Gunpowder infantry and Cavalry so it would make sense to give it the Gunpowder Tag as well. Historically the fire lance was also considered a gunpowder weapon.
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Ming Dynasty China
Imperial Officials collect taxes far exceeding 75 points per minute, making it unnecessary to unlock buildings like the Tax Office in the late game. In previous version changes, China gained earlier access to dynasty buildings across eras while also receiving nerfs. These adjustments resulted in China unlocking only a new dynasty unit—but no new dynasty building—after investing significant resources to reach the Ming Dynasty. Perhaps the Ming Dynasty could increase the dynasty building cap by +1. In the pre-release beta version of the game, the dynasty building cap was 5, but this was reduced to 3 in the official release.
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Spirit Way
The issue with the Spirit Way is that Fire Lancers and Grenadiers were over-nerfed, leading players to rarely use them.
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Dynasty Effects
The Yuan Dynasty’s movement speed bonus is more advantageous for most matchups, as it synergizes better with China’s gameplay. Players can enter the Ming Dynasty first and then the Yuan Dynasty to retain all dynasty buildings and units. A future update could allow China to switch unlocked dynasty effects at the Town Center, albeit with a long cooldown.
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China and Zhu Xi’s Legacy
The Yuan Dynasty’s effect is stronger than the Ming Dynasty’s for China because the movement speed bonus better complements the strengths of Hand Cannoneers, Palace Guards, and Fire Lancers. Meanwhile, Zhu Xi’s Yuan Dynasty effect feels like an afterthought—players enter the Yuan Dynasty primarily for the Pagoda. Zhu Xi’s Ming Dynasty effect is good but should apply to all military units rather than only unique units, as this renders it useless in naval-focused matchups. Entering the Yuan Dynasty grants a 10% discount on ship production costs, but transitioning to the Ming Dynasty sacrifices this discount without compensating by boosting ship damage. Thus, Zhu Xi’s Ming Dynasty effect should benefit all military units, not just unique ones.
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Summary
Both China and Zhu Xi’s Legacy undergo significant shifts in playstyle and strategy when entering different dynasties, reflecting the developers’ original vision of leveraging dynasty changes to keep opponents guessing and gain an edge.
Suggestions:
Swap the Yuan and Ming Dynasty buffs for China.
Let Zhu Xi’s Ming Dynasty buffs all military units instead of unique ones.
- In theory that’s true. But the idea is when you go Ming dynasty, chances are you’re at very late game so your tax reserves in buildings are most likely depleted. Then you also have to factor in travel distances to reach a tax drop off. Right now only a few landmarks and town centers can serve as tax drop offs, so far away resource nodes and production buildings might not even be within range for an Imperial Official to even collect the tax. The idea of the Tax building serves a dual purpose of having a cheap tax drop off for remote locations and also a way for Imperial Officials to generate some gold when Taxes are depleted until Taxes are refilled again.
Right now both Chinese civs got 3 unique buildings in the village, granary, and pagoda. Realistically only an extra granary might be useful by the time you unlock Ming because you’d most likely have built enough houses/villages to reach the 200 pop cap already and all relics would most likely be gone by that time so having an extra pagoda might not even work. Even food isn’t much of an issue at that stage especially if you got 3 Imperial Officials supervising the 3 granaries so an extra granary may not be needed.
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True. I think Fire Lancers and Grenadiers could use a buff and that’s why I suggested the 2 unique techs to be added to give them some extra utility. Back when Fire Lancers used to do full aoe damage with no fall off it was considered very strong so bringing that back could increase its viability especially since the charge damage got nerfed from 23 to 15 with damage fall off. For the Grenadiers, I think the Zhuxi unique tech that gives them the ability to boost damage for other units could also improve its utility as a damage amplifier.
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I think this would be a good change allowing China to swap between the different Dynasty bonuses depending on the situation.
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I think the original design of Zhuxi was to have it focus on its Dynasty/Unique units like the Imperial Guard. Giving all military units a 20% boost in damage might give Zhuxi too much offensive power since they already have plenty of versatility from Temple of the Sun like healing, movement speed, and range. They could maybe make the Baochuan a unique unit for purposes of having the Ming dynasty damage apply to a naval unit. Maybe give it a bit more health than a standard Warship.
For China, I think having the bonuses at the current dynasties is fine since the bonuses makes sense at the stage of the game when you unlock them. I liked your earlier suggestion of reworking Spirit Way so I think giving it the additional ability to do a global heal that’s only unlocked in Ming Dynasty and allowing Palace Guards to also activate it’s current effect should make Ming feel much better as a frontal engagement/attrition playstyle.
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