Chinese Need Buffs AOE4

Right, to start off I’m a china main but I know not to be blindsided or biased when it comes to talking why they need these buffs, I’ll try and make points but could get lost because of frustration.

China need some early game buffs, now I know the chinese Zhuge Nu are a good unit, 3x shots each time they are fired, point is, they are locked behind basically a 200 gold 400 food cost, now I think that’s sort of fair until I go against someone like the English, if they bring man at arms, i need to have roughly 40 zhuge nu to 1 shot them, and usually MAA’s are accompanied by Lbows so my troops are useless and now they have complete ground, if the French come with their knights then once again even more zhuge nu are needed, they cost 80 resources and are the only viable thing in feudal but I do use micro so they can be ok to deal with if there isn’t more than 10.

Granaries are pathetic, 10% boost for 250 wood? now if you clump them together then you might be able to get a few villagers with 30% extra harvest speed but for 750 wood it should be more, late game i can have my imperials out collecting taxes and having about 20-30 on gold and roughly 60 on food, my food still runs out first, I’m not a beginner to this game, I’ve played them for the past 20 years so I know how to be efficient with economy.

Fire lancers are a joke, they come out with no armour unless put on with the blacksmith, and for some reason people are still wanting them nerfed??? they have poor attack, their explosive spear has basically no radius and more or less scratches units health, I remember in beta when I could 1 shot an entire group of archers, spearmen MAA’s etc… with 50 lancers, now I know completely that was way to much damage but they are now more or less an unusable unit, they cost more than a normal horseman but have less armour and less attack, but fire lancers have more siege, I understand that but an extra 10 is stupid, they are slower, more costly and worse attack than the most basic horsemen.

Palace guards, I’m sorry but not once have I ever thought, damn I wish I could lose some damage/health so these guys could run faster, no… just a simple no, as far as I’m aware, a palace guard was more hardy compared to any MMA’s if I remember right historically, they should have more armour and more health, maybe give them bonus damage to fish because it would probably be more beneficial than the speed.

Nest of bees, now I know this is a touchy one for people, these things are good at taking out groups, yes they have a good spread and good damage, but we don’t get access to the mangonel, that thing pre-patch was disgusting, 4 mangonel’s and all your units just entered the shadow realm, with the nest of bees they are perfectly good where they are, they take about a second and a half to fully complete the fire compared to a mangonel who would just yeet and wipe in 0.2 seconds.

barbican of the sun… why would I want to pay 200 gold and 400 food for a glorified outpost… it shoots like every 5 seconds for roughly 30 damage, when I go against a Chinese player I just walk straight past it, It legitimately does worse than a regular outpost, Now I know it does well with armoured units but by the time its taking it’s 2nd shot they’ve already raided your base and typed GG, can you at least do something so it can be upgraded, The French with their red palace just destroys units, you may as well alt F4 if you walk in front of that thing, your units look like a used dart board after their toe entering its radius.

so all in all I’ll wrap it up, age 2 good archer units until anything armoured comes, age 3 palace guards want to go zoom with wooden swords and fire lancers have firecrackers on the end of their lancers, both become trash late game, zhuge Nu also trash late game as your opponent has probably got armoured units, granaries are pointless, don’t even know why they got nerfed to start with, would rather build 1 outpost with a springald attachment than the barbican and NOB’s are the only thing that’s good until the dev see a single clip of 1 of them taking out 5 archers at once.

Please do something with china, Many civs have their unique things but they are unique and good, every unit for china late game is always below compared to others, apart from NOB’s of course.

p.s. grenadiers and hand cannoneers don’t count towards this, I know all of this seems somewhat jokey but they don’t have anything that is better than something than some civs already got, and by all means I’m open to a debate on it.


I don’t agree on all points with you, fire throw ok, attic I wouldn’t raise the gain but I would put the cost at 150 woods, then not everything has to be countered by naked zhuge, against french cav it’s pikeman, against english archer it’s light cavalry, and against man-at-arms it’s a recurrent problem at the moment they are incontrovertible for a lot of civ, against palace guard I don’t agree they are mediocre at age 3 but correct but are very strong in imperial, for nest of bee not agree with you it has very good damage and mangonaux is null, the nest of bee in my opinion should have less damage but more speed, but it is my opinion, and for the barbican it is nevertheless strong in open map to defend the gold mine for example or for the dynasty song, better dynasty, on the other hand I think we should be able to buy weapon slots, archers and springal at age 3 and canon at age 4 and finally canonier has hands is correct, the grenadier should have a range of 3/3. 6 allowing to micro with archer if not it is unbeatable but all the same to keep its force because it is extremely expensive,
Chinese are also my main civ and I think that are globally correct, an English nerf for example would be better.

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Maybe they should stop nerfing Chinese every patch when they change something about the civ.

  • There is no justifcation for supervision nerf.
  • Granaries are a scam with their high cost of 250 wood each and less than 10% gather rate increase in practice.
  • Then they toss in random nerfs like Ancient Techniques but meanwhile its completely fine for Rus to pay half the price for identical upgrades of 20% attack speed for bombards.
  • Pagodas are bugged and don’t provide +100 additional gold like the tooltip says. They provide only 100 gold which you already get from a relic.
  • Tithe Barns doesn’t work on Pagodas.
  • Nest of Bees are still 200 HP and you are forced to build them from the clocktower so they don’t get destroyed in 2 Springald shots.
  • Because of this Chinese can only ever build 1 NoB at a time and cannot reinforce them at the front line. All other civs can build Workshops anywhere to reinforce quickly
  • Chinese still has the worst Landmarks in the entire game
  • Yuan and Ming Dynasty are still overpriced for its effects
  • Fire Lancers got completely patched out of the game

And lastly, Tax is still a gimmick and not reliable. As long as Chinese has no way to collect tax from mining camps, lumber camps and forward production building far away from your Town Centers, Tax remains a broken feature.

However I have given an easy solution for this issue many months ago: Make Keeps act as Tax drop-off points. All the devs needed to do was to put this in the game just like they changed the Tax Landmark to a drop-off point!

Players always build Keeps in strategic locations near stone/gold and build productions buildings nearby. This will ensure Chinese gets Tax gold from these buildings. Rus don’t have this issue at all because they directly sap gold from trees into Rus bank account. But Chinese can’t do that.


granaries are not useless…? just building 1 with 12 rice farms will displace 1.2 villagers on standard rice farms around a mil. This means if you made all 3 for 36 rice farms and DID NOT OVERLAP the granaries at all; you still get a net 3.6 villagers worth of rice farms.

My personal issue with granaries are the cost in total wood doesn’t break even until you get 36 farms AND have the granaries in the optimal configuration.

I suggest granaries go down in price to 200 wood (down from 250 wood)
and maybe upgrade the bonus from 10% up to 12%

This would keep isolated granaries displacing essentially 1 villager (1.4 due to the 12% bonus); but it would make the cost of a single granary plus 12 farms equal to 14 farms + 2 mills. So we’d keep the up front cost being steep which seems to be their intent but it would break even immediately and NOT require all 36 and in perfect configuration.

Secondly I want the flexibility of having the granaries split if so desired but keep the full effect of having 3 granaries in a proper configuration; something like 12% for having just 1 built, then 14% if 2 are field and 16% for having all 3 on the field regardless of their placement and configuration…

Pagoda can use a buff, I suggested allowing them to generate 50 tax per min.

I’d like to see villagers come down in price BUT A BETTER IDEA is to allow village to have the same LOS as an outpost!!!

Give fire lancers 40 hP etc (155 up to 195)

Lastly zhuge nu needs standard range of 5 tiles.

Yes we know the math. However in the lategame with 120-140 villagers, 3 villager difference is nothing.

One TC costs 400 wood and 300 stone. One Granary costs 250 wood already. Its completely overpriced. The opportunity cost of spending even 250 wood on a single granary is hard to justify as is. Building 3 of them is a waste of ressources. Transitioning to farms is already extremely wood intensive, you can get more than 3 farms for each granary. And when you transition to farms, you want to build all of them as soon as you can to secure food income.

Yes this is absolutely correct. Its terrible design to require the perfect setup and thousands of wood investment for granaries to be worth it. You can never guarantee perfect setup due to map design.

Any other civ feature simply works and makes your civ better without requiring thousands of ressources invested. Just look at English, French, Abbasid. They don’t have to invest nearly as much, or talking about French, nothing at all, to start winning.

French vs Chinese is the perfect example. Chinese has to go for a 2nd TC or Song Dynasty just to keep up with French playing normally. This drastically cuts options for Chinese and makes them predictable. This is a death sentence for competitive play.

you’re not building granaries late game??? you’re transitioning into farms late feudal early castle that’s when 3 villagers make a difference. Again 250 wood and 12 farms cost the same as 2 mills and 14 farms . And the 12 farms around granaries is worth 13.2 farms so you’re not overpaying; it just lump sum upfront. It would FEEL better if the granaries are more modular and a touch cheaper/strong buff. Regardless the biggest issue with granaries is that they need to be stacked and they take up sooo much space so it’s unlikely to get the optimal build each game (and not be exposed too).

I think Chinese really need to completely remove cooldown on imperial official tax collection.

The AI isn’t smart enough; if they removed tax cooldown then an IO could be stuck in a low gold loop going back and forth and back and forth collecting 1 tax over and over and over and over until maxed. We need smarter AI.

Would love to see these 2 changes:

  1. Reduce dynasty cost (2nd landmark)
  2. Granary: change stacking bonus → increase drop off (like IO)

This. Overal the dynasty system is fun, but outside song( which gives you basically a 3rd TC) it have small uses. I dont rmbr when i did a yuan dynasty in multiplayer, Ming sometimes in VERY Late game.

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if the game is going decent enough ming dynasty in 1 v 1 is expected; Yuan dynasty isn’t too expensive as it’s too situational/useless in most cases for the investment.

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In 1v1, if you see Ming, it’s either:

  1. ELO <1200
  2. 40 minutes into the game
  3. Special enclosed maps like mountain pass

VERY situational I’d say. I don’t mind nerfing grenadiers, and pretty sure it’s not just me wanna see people tech into Ming/Yuan more often


Nerfing granadiers would be ok only IF Ming dynasty cost would be reduced radially i think.