Chinese Potential Arsenal and Manchu Training

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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I like the point about the Changdao but I prefer their mobility. I think they would be much stronger if they could get that Military Drummers upgrade and get 5.5 movement speed. That would make them even more effective. I, personally, use them to assault artillery and defend against cavalry. Like, if my opponent wheels up their artillery to strike at my like 40 Arquebusiers, I hit the spaced-out formation and while that’s happening, my Meteor Hammers and Changdao come from two different directions, sometimes going through the loosening of the Arquebusiers. When fully leveled they have a high attack too, like 40 if not more BUT I think they should have an upgrade, like with Manchu combat that gives them a 1.5 multiplier against infantry. That would really round them out but that might make them overpowered.

And the Banners, I disagree, I never have dead weight from my armies. I especially love waiting to send like 20 Steppe Riders and 20 Keshiks. Like, I will wait till my enemy engages me closer to my base and if I appear to be winning, I will send the Steppe Riders straight towards my enemy’s base and use the Keshiks as escorts. It’s a super cost effective method too and if I am extra cruel, I build 4 mountain castles on the edge of their base and I can just swarm them. Granted, some civilizations are way more resistant to that, like Russia. Their Strelets body Keshiks and while the Steppe Rider gets a damage boost against infantry, they can be easily overwhelmed without fire support or just attacked by cavalry archers or halberdiers.

HOWEVER, your idea about scrapping the Banner Army system altogether gave me an idea. There could be a card called “New Army Creation” or something more accurate to the Beiyang Army. They were 2 full units that the Qing government created and modeled entirely on Western designs, using Western style uniforms (albeit, with the Manchu cap and the obvious Chinese colors, whereas the Japanese straight up just took German military uniforms). That could be a “revolution” of sorts for China. It removes the Banner system, and can transform the Arquebusier into a stronger, Beiyang Infantry, or something, just thinking.

However, it is worth noting that the poorly supplied New Army was involved during the Sino-Japanese War where 600,000 Chinese lost to like only 200,000 Japanese. This is also noteworthy because Yuan Shikai, field marshal of the Beiyang Army REFUSED direct orders to march because he was not willing to risk his army (he was involved in dethroning the last Qing emperor, declared himself president of China, then emperor, then died in 1916, then Civil War resumed). So idk, Beiyang and New Army upgrades might suck lol.

The Grand Empress Dowager, Cixi, she embezzled so much money from the New Army that they had almost no supplies during the Sino-Japanese War. That and like 50 years of weak leadership led to an army lacking leadership. All the good generals had passed away like 10 years prior or were super ancient by 1895.

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just to note a point on Old Dynasties Reform. Since you can make mongolian army from the castle now, you don’t need to spend wood to make anticav lategame and can even go skirm goon with steppe rider as tanks and siege as well.

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As an India main,this Question bothers me too! there are some very basic things that , Now ALL civs have, but, even after 2 generations of update, India and China still don’t have ! i.e. - Arsenal and Long ranged Mortars(more focused on India as its mortar is least ranged n most popped) , although In case on India there are some other things too,
But all in all, I have observed similar neglect towards china too in a way,

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Correct, Old Dynasty Reforms is kinda pointless. If it gave only like 15% buff to damage and HP but converted all wood cost to coin (something the Aztecs got for their puma spearmen), it would actually be a useful card. I usually only send it late and if I’m playing with a Spanish player. Spanish + China, with Spanish team archaic infantry training, causes the Qiang infantry and Chu ko nu to train INSTANTLY, like they’re Russian strelets. That’s a useful combo but if you run out of wood, then they’re useless. Unless you really micromanage the economy and rely on the factory and Porcelain Tower for wood.

I never understood how people say China lacks anti-cavalry stuff, they did in the old Asian Dynasties when the cuirassier was so much stronger and the Chinese didn’t have the minor buffs they got now, but qiang infantry with Mongol keshiks can make quick work of cuirassiers, especially if they’re supported by chu ko nu or arquebusiers. Their .75% reduction isn’t that bad, when you acknowledge that they are behind the keshik, who are in turn, behind spears.

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Oh yeah, it’s literal neglect.

Furthermore, and this next part might be the topic of another thread of mine, but the mercenaries. Only the European civs get that final age up bonus that gives their mercenaries 50% HP and 50% attack. With the new age ups, Sweden gets Jaegers and Black Riders, Portugal gets Ronin and Lil Bombards, the Dutch get Elmeti and Fusiliers (best unit in the game). Fully leveled up, with that final age up bonus, the Dutch Fusilier has 450HP, running speed of 6.05, and a range shot of 110, melee of over 50, siege of like 150. They can destroy anything if they’re used intelligently.

Now, the issue here is…why don’t the other civs get that? China still can’t train Iron Troops and Manchus natively, even though they’re native units! And why should the Chinese Manchu have 400HP while the fully leveled, bonus mercenary one have 600HP? There’s a card in China’s deck called Manchu Combat! The Qing dynasty was founded by Manchus, Manchu Combat should allow the Chinese to train Manchus, with 50% more HP and attack, on top of all the other buffs.

Furthermore, I still can’t believe the Indians don’t have cavalry archers, it’s the Mughal Empire, founded by Central Asian cavalry archers…

The Asian civs need an arsenal like building and if any civ can train mercenaries, they should be able to access that 50% buff to HP and damage. Like, the Dutch can just get 40 Fusiliers (with 450HP and 110 attack!) and then get like 20 Ruyters, and that’s it, take like 5 mortars to help destroy buildings because those Fusiliers are gonna murder anything, even heavy cannons.

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So I’ve been thinking about the arsenal idea, and I think there are 2 routes to go. Both should be available because the Japanese get two routes of arsenal style upgrades and they’re OP to begin with. So 1, the Confucian Academy wonder should provide the following…

Mountain Pattern Armor - Heavy cavalry receives +10% HP. That would give a little boost to the meteor hammer, who would only gain an extra 22 hit points, 30 for the iron flail, and 15 for the steppe rider. This would also effect Chinese mercenaries, like if they had mameluks or stradiots.

Matchlock - All gunpowder units receive + 10% damage. This would primarily effect the arquebusier but also fusilier, jaegers, and highland mercenaries.

Jesuit Mathematicians - All artillery receives +15% movement speed, + 2 LOS, and + 2 range. This would effect all mercenaries (like the lil bombard), all consulate artillery (like the German heavy cannons), and the native artillery like the flying crow. This is a combination of trunion and gunner’s quadrant, but not as strong on the range and LOS.

Pillage - heavy cavalry gets a 1.25 multiplier against buildings, same exact tech the Europeans get and the Japanese get from the Golden Pavilion. This would not make the steppe rider’s siege attack much higher, the oprichnik would still outclass the steppe rider in that regard. I think a fully leveled steppe rider can get like 77 siege and an oprichnik gets closer to 120.

Martial Tradition - All ranged cavalry receives an additional 15% damage. This would apply to the Manchus and Keshiks. This would give a fully leveled up (Mongolian Scourge, Western Reforms, and Old Han Reforms) a ranged attack of about 23.

Then there should be a card, called Self-Strengthening Movement, should be a 4th age card. Based off the historical Self-Strengthening Movement that the Qing dynasty did after the Taiping Rebellion and Opium Wars, in which the Chinese sought to copy Western technology. This would ship the Fuzhou Arsenal, which provides the following.

Military Drummers - All infantry gets +10% movement speed. This applies to Chinese mercenaries too. (something they currently lack entirely).

Professional Gunners - All artillery (flying crow and hand mortar, not flamethrower) would receive +10% HP. This would make the frail flying crow a bit more durable, comparable to the British rocket.

Mass-production - All villagers gather all resources at +10%. This is meant to offset the Japanese having terraced rice paddies, while China does not. If China would ever get that historical invention of theirs in the game, this mass-production should still stand. It wouldn’t make the Chinese overpowered, it would allow their economy to catch up to the Europeans, similar in strength to like the Ottomans and Spain, not like the British or the French.

Favored Nation Clause - All consulate armies cost 20% less export. This is a jab at the Treaty of Nanjing, and all the other unequal treaties the Western (and then Japanese) forced on China. I think this is fair, but I think India should also have it. Japan should not, they have too much going for them and they didn’t so much resist the West as more so joined their team.

These upgrades, to me, would balance the Chinese out a bit more. They shouldn’t be overpowered, their historical peak (as far as this game is concerned) is like from 1660 to 1780, thus they should be like the Ottomans, super strong early on and then leveling out towards the later ages but an Imperial Age China should be able to play a match against an Imperial Age France, they would just have to try a little harder. Which now, they already have to try REAL HARD.

I have one more thing to add, Mongolian Scourge should be changed. The keshik should receive a 5 times multiplier against cavalry. That way, a fully leveled up keshik would do about 100 damage per arrow. This is still NOTHING compared to an Imperial Dragoon, who does about 140.

Alternatively, it could just give the keshik an additional 10% damage and keep the 4 multiplier. Its base attack would be closer to an Ottoman or Russian cavalry archer, who averages 27 at the imperial level. The Mongol cavalry archer, feared and almighty, should not have such a low attack. It should have the low HP, that’s fine, that’s a good balance. But they should be able to at least, you know, be the Mongols.

Also the iron flail needs some help. It’s a near universally worthless unit, only good against archers and skirmishers, not good against anything else, not even good against artillery, they need something more. A fully leveled imperial iron flail does like 39 damage per swing and has 650HP. With those bonuses I mentioned earlier, its HP would approach 700, close to a fully leveled up hussar. However, I think Mongolian scourge should raise the multiplier against light infantry from 1.5 to 2.5.That way they’d be doing 98 damage per swing, instead of the 78 they do now. Also, I think Mongolian Scourge should increase the splash damage radius from 1.5 to 2. I think the nerf of .50 damage against heavy infantry should stay. The iron flail as a weapon, isn’t going to threaten a pikeman or fully armored halberdier that much, so that’s fine. But if the devs want this unit to solely kill crossbowmen, jungle archers, cetan bows, skirmishers, strelets, yumi archers, then it should excel at that, not be mediocre. The increased damage and splash radius would go a long way. They would still die to dragoons and pikemen, as intended.

That’s all I can think of tonight. Just had to put this out there.

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I also think that the game underestimated the strength of the Qing Empire in reality. In the AoE3 period, the Qing Empire was very powerful at the beginning, expanding to more than 13 million square kilometers, and its GDP was still the first in the world at that time, which was different from the setting in the game. The early stage of the Qing Empire in the game is too weak. This is not the real Qing Empire. The decline of the Qing Empire began after 1800.

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Correct, the Qing from 1660 to like 1750 was by far the most powerful country on the planet, since Spain was in decline and the Ottomans were on their way to suffering their first major defeat but even after the First Opium War, China still was the largest economy and richest nation. It was really the Taiping Rebellion that caused China to decline and then England and France, and then Germany…and Russia, and Japan, they all attacked China after the Taiping Rebellion and THAT took China from top dog, to wounded tiger, to “Sick Man of Asia” and even then, that term wouldn’t really apply until like 1895, after the Sino-Japanese War, because by then, it was just a fact. 600,000 Qing soldiers losing to like 300,000 Japanese, there’s no denying that.

BUT if China didn’t have all its money siphoned away by England and France, maybe China could have afforded the ammo, weapons, and soldiers they needed to defend their interests. Though, one could argue the Taiping Rebellion is accidentally England’s fault since Hong Xiuquan read a protestant pamphlet, had a seizure, woke up and thought he was the Second Coming. Now, that is a stretch but hey, might as well make the comment.

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Hardly England’s fault. It was not even Protestantism’s fault.
The fact of the matter is that Xiuquan had failed his Confucian public exams too many times, and was barred from public office, which was the prestigious position in Chinese society, so he rebelled to try to cheat his way into a public position, by force, like so many rebels throughout History.

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That is actually correct. I am of the mind to believe Hong Xiuquan felt he was the Second Coming, rather than him going “I bet I can use this as an excuse to rebel” because he had like 100 other good excuses that made more sense or were more readily available. But my statement on it being arguable that the Taiping Rebellion is partially on England is because England forced its penetration into the Chinese heartland. That’s splitting hairs and grasping at straws, fact of the matter is after the Qianlong Emperor died, the Qing spent very little time and money on their army, something England was able to exploit during the First Opium War.

Though this is off topic, the fact of the matter is China, in this game, would benefit immensely from an arsenal type upgrade system. It would just be ease of life. I’m not asking for training time speed increases, that would make stuff China into another Russia and be very broken. But if we’re talking about historical accuracy, I know for a fact that Russia had cuirassiers and so did Austria. I think it would be cool if Russia had a cuirassier but he was cheaper and thus weaker than the French one and would lack the royal guard status.

Though the Germans (I think specifically Prussia in this case) had those rad Death’s Head Hussars. That would be a cool thing to try and implement. Maybe a one time thing, all Uhlan convert to Death’s Head Hussars, who give the Uhlan another +20% HP and attack. Would that be too strong? Like say all of them get killed, you can’t train them again, it doesn’t permanently change the Uhlan at the stables.

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Man, I love this reply because it’s so accurate. Sorry, I’m just seeing this comment now.

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Yes yes great suggestions, give china arsenal, buff flail, enable manchu, change changdao to be closer to halberdier, and reduce flamethrower population/cost.

In exchange they can hit the starting goat, tea export trickle, and maybe some unit shipments.

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Changing the unit name is the easiest way.

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