[Chronicles] Hoplites are strange and kinda weak

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

I have 2 main issues with Hoplites in Chronicles:

  1. They are too much like the Milita Line
  2. The Milita Line is weak in AoE2 and therefor the Hoplites are weak too

(I know it’s technically the Levy Line in Chronicles but I will keep to the AoE2 names to reduce confusion)

They are too much like the Milita Line

The Hoplite costs a little more Food and Gold and provides a little more armour then the Milita Line.
Their formation bonus is kinda boring because it’s basically just -1/-1 armour of single Hoplites. The bonus activates even it you just have 2 Hoplites.
Since they just have a little more armour then the Milita Line they fulfil the same role.

The 0.3 range has little practical effect. Kamayuks have +1 range so they can attack from the 2nd row in a formation. That can double your armies DPS in some situations. But 0.3 range just makes it a little easier to connect with the enemy, nothing more.

Both Civilisations that can train Hoplites have some bonuses and UTs for them so you will rarely have a reason to train Milita Line units. The main advantage is that you instantly get Hoplites in Castle Age without having to research 2 upgrades first.

The Milita Line is weak in AoE2 and therefor the Hoplites are weak too

The Milita Line is pretty weak in AoE2 and barely gets used unless the civilisation has some massive bonus like +33% attack speed, -30% cost, +4 attack and so on.
Even worse there is no Gambesons in Chronicles while Cavalry and Archers kept all upgrades from AoE2.

My suggestions

  1. Make the Hoplite stronger
  2. Change the costs
  3. Make the Milita Line a Hoplite counter
  4. Buff the Unique Technologies

Historically the Phalanx tactics where countered by Swordsman. Roman armies beating Macedonian armies being the prime example.

Make the Hoplite stronger

Since they have a Spear and a big Shield I think they should have bonus damage vs. Cavalry and higher pierce armour.

Current armour with formation bonus:

  • Hoplite: 2+1/1
  • Elite Hoplite: 3+1/1+1

Suggested change:

  • Hoplite: 1+1/2+1
  • Elite Hoplite: 1+2/2+2

Effectively -1 melee armour and +2 pierce armour in formation.
Formations are now also more important and single Hoplites are significantly weaker which makes it more tactical to use them.

Bonus change

+5 (+6) attack vs. Cavalry for (Elite) Hoplite.
This is far from being OP. Viking Infantry also get +5 vs. Cavalry too.

+4 (+5) vs. Camels should probably be added to, even though Chronicles only has one Campaign Exclusive Camel unit atm.

Change the costs

Currently the Hoplite is just +10 Food and +10 Gold cost compared to a Milita with Supplies. Since both units have almost the same costs you are never incentivised to use one over the other depending on your economic situation.

My suggestion:

40 Food 40 Gold
-15 Food and +10 Gold compared to now.
-5 Food and +20 Gold compared to Milita Line.

This makes the Hoplites more Gold heavy, which fits their design. It also makes them even more different compared to the Spearman Line that also counters cavalry.

Make the Milita Line a Hoplite counter

Hoplite get Eagle Warrior armour class or a new “Heavy Infantry” Armour class.
This way the Milita Line can do bonus damage vs. Hoplites.
Other Chronicles exclusive units can also have their stats adjusted to balance out the new Hoplite stats, for example Immortals could gain a little bonus damage vs. Hoplites, maybe even in ranged mode.

Using the existing Eagle Warrior armour class would have the advantage of making it more compatible with Crossplay. Most AoE2 Infantry UUs have some bonus damage vs. Eagle Warrior.

Buff the Unique Technologies

Xyphos

Currently:

+1 attack for each 10 enemies nearby, up to +3

My suggestion:

+1 attack for each 5 enemies nearby, up to +5

Aztecs get +4 on all Infantry as a Unique Technology. Getting +3 on 2 units (one being a ship) and only when there are 30 enemies are nearby is not really all that good.

Giving them +5 from just 25 enemies nearby would be a lot more useful and also certainly not OP. This bonus really only applies in large battles.

Eisphora

Currently:

Hoplites cost -10 Gold but +10 Food

My suggestion:

Hoplites cost -20 Gold but +20 Food

-10 Gold is not that much, especially not for a technology that cost 750 Gold. That means you have to train 75 Hoplites to break even on this technology, and that completely ignores the increased Food cost and the Food cost of the technology itself.

With the bonus increased to -20 Gold it would take 37.5 Hoplites to beak even.
Also the end results of the technology would be 20 Gold in both chases.

Now it’s 65 Food and 20 Gold with the technology, in the future it would be 60 Food and 20 Gold, so just -5 Food overall.

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2

Don’t know about balance, but Immortal have issue in fighting Hoplite is true in history as Achaemenids infantry including Immortal are known to be inferior to Greek Hoplite.

About Immortal Ranged mode to be a bit better against Hoplite is ok as Achaemenids is known for missile (archer).

3

Maybe the anti Infantry bonus damage of War Chariots is big enough to fight Hoplites that do bonus damage vs. Cavalry.
The War Chariots seem really strong atm. so maybe the Persians wouldn’t need any new buffs to help keep up with buffed Hoplites.

But I also like the idea of only giving ranged Immortals bonus damage vs. Hoplites.

4

This was done by using uneven terrain not really sword beats spears as games simplify it.Realistically a spear is a better weapon as you can keep a safe distance and poke the enemy.

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5

Reality is not that easy as a game.
Every Roman Legionary had a pilum and every Hoplite had a sword.
Swords are secondary weapons since they are relatively small and easy to carry.

But I think there is enough evidence to say that sword+shield works relatively well against sword+spear at last in a 1v1. situation.

Making the Hoplites more depended on their formation bonus by doubling the bonus but reducing the base armour represents this weakness better.

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6

Issue isn’t about sword is better than spear but more about Phalanx tactics got easily outmaneuvered and hit at the flank, result in collapse of formation.

I think one way to make Hoplites look like that is to have 0.5-1 range so that 2nd line could help attack but reduce damage or attack speed so that 1 unit or 1 line isn’t strong and get surrounded would spread attack around, which reduce damage to kill unit ahead.

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7

Imo, a buff can be given to hoplites (more like serjeant) and give it a counter, Cestrosphendon ‘dart slinger’. Historically, it was effective against legions.

The cestrosphendone was used by Macedonian troops against the legions. Livy tells us that the weapon was very effective against the armoured Roman soldiers, his words are as follows:

“They suffered (the Romans) mainly from the cestrosphendons, a novel kind of weapon invented during the war. It consisted of a pointed iron head of two palms long, fastened to a shaft made of pinewood, a span in length and as thick as a man´s finger. Round the shaft three feathers were fastened as in the case of arrows, and the sling was held by two scutale, one shorter than the other. When the missile was poised in the center of the sling, the slinger whirled it round with great force and it flew out like a leaden bullet. Many of the soldiers were wounded by these and by missiles of all kinds.”

8

I think that is way to complicated for AoE2 to work.

I am generally in favour of making Slingers a generic unit in Chronicles since they were way more common in ancient times.

That would allow buffing Infantry in general which makes a lot more sense in an ancient setting.
Cavalry and Archers got a lot better in the middle ages because of better horse breeds and better bow technology while Infantry kinda stayed the same.

The dart slinger in particular could be a Macedonian UT. The mutually exclusive UTs could make that even more interesting then normal AoE2 UTs.

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9

Strange and weak. The balance of units in Battle for Greece is all over the place.

I really don’t understand the Hoplite and how they gave bonuses all over the place for the units. Like the Spartans you have:

The militia, the spearman, the hoplite, and hippeus and then a polemarch. What you are supposed to use? You have a hoplite tech but the hippeus can fit the role…? the militia is to use for what…?

I don’t like their design and hope they change so their role make sense.

10

Hippeus role seem to be counter archer from high pierce armor.
Hoplite role is to go against melee from higher melee armor.
Spearman role is cheap powerful counter to cavalry.
Militia seem to be well round that is cheaper in gold, no proper role but guess as harassment in place of scout line? (do good damage, a bit tanky to absorb damage and on cheap side)?

Polemarch is general that buff units around it, so role is very clear.

11

There is nothing clear.

Hippeus / Hoplite / Paragon

60f 30g / 55f 30g / 60f 20g
90 hp / 70 hp / 70 hp
11 attk / 12 attk / 10 attk
2/5 armor / 3(4)/1(2) armor / 1/1 armor

Why would someone trade the massive pierce armor of the Hippeus because of a single extra hit that the Hoplite can take fighting against the Hippeus?

Worse yet, if they fight a Cavalier that have 12 damage, they both die in 9 hits. (militia die in 7)

So looking at this, tell me why someone would make anything other than Hippeus…? Put into the context that this is a single player DLC and it becomes worse.

My spartan army is basically only Hippeus and Polemarch. You really think thats the intended way for these units?

12

The Hippeus and Hoplite have almost the same cost (+5 Food) and both don’t really have any bonus damage.
Hippeus have a little more vs. buildings.

The only reason to build Paragon would be fighting Eagle civs, that don’t exist in Chronicles.

Not sure what they thought when they did that. Did they just not care because they only want the civs to be played in the campaign?
Many people want Chronicles to get it’s own ranked lobbies as soon as there are enough civs so I hope they rethink some units and technologies to make Chronicles balanced and interesting.

Edit:
Maybe simple changes would be enough to make those units feel more unique:

Paragon: +5 Attack vs. Infantry
Hoplite: +5 Attack vs. Cavalry
Hippeus: +5 Infantry Armour

Hoplites have a new role, which is being good against Cavalry.
Paragons now counter Hoplites to make up for that new bonus.
Hippeus doubles down on the heavy but slow identity, halving the bonus damage from Athenian and Persian regional units and negating the new Paragon bonus.

The new Paragon would be a lot like a Legionary and the new Hoplite like a Viking Champion.

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13

But that’s what make it more strange, as its intended to be a single player civs, why the units are so ‘safe’ and lame…? They can make massive distinct bonuses and stuff because it does not matter to be balanced.

The civ bonuses is the same thing, it looks like they where trying to fit the civs and units from Chronicles into the Age2 balance.

14

It feels contradicting in so many ways.
Some bonuses like the free ship in Dark Age are obviously totally OP on water maps vs. none Chronicles civs.
Some civ bonus are really strong like the Athenian eco bonus at the beginning, which is practically just a better version of the Roman bonus.

But then the UTs, which should be a highlight since they are mutually exclusive, are super weak. The bonus are often way worse then similar AoE2 techs.
All Infantry +4 attack is a lot better then, 1 Infantry unit getting up to +3 when the enemy has a big army in one place.

Getting -10 Gold cost on a unit for 750 Gold is also probably almost never worth it.

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15

What I find even strange is how the Romae ad Bellum mod have very interesting bonuses and the civ really feel it have a theme, the Chronicles bonuses feels much more random and trying to not overlap with the bonuses that exist in Age2.

Compare the Spartans in game to RaB spartans, who looks like the super Infantry civ…?

I hate this mutually exclusive techs. Not only are they very weak, it feels very bad not picking the obvious good one because of how imbalanced they are.

Spartans: Spearmen, Skirmishers, and Villagers train 50% faster OR Hoplites and Monoremes +1 attack for every 10 nearby enemy military units [max +3].

Hoplites are redundant for Spartans, why I care about +1 attack for monoremes? I will trade massive +50% villager training time for this when I play a lot of missions starting with low villagers…? I need to sabotage myself. (The infantry bonus is for what…? Less damage to spearman…?)

Seriously, they need a massive rework on these things.

16

I think that Athens and the Achaemenids are much better designed civilisations then Sparta, especially the Achaemenids.
Athens is way to much of an Archer civilisation tbh.

Sparta just feels kinda bad. Having 3 almost identical units doesn’t help.
For Athens you just train Hoplites and never use the Milita Line since your Hoplites are fast and your Milita Line doesn’t even have all upgrades.

The Red Hering UTs are kinda the worst about the DLC though.
Make every Archer, including Cavalry Archers and your UU fire 25% Faster or give +1 Pierce armour to a unit that is missing 2 pierce armour. wow.

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17

The Achaemenids are ok, but I don’t like Athens and much less Sparta, I feel they don’t have a theme and don’t match the head fantasy they where supposed to bring.

Again, lets compare with Romae ad Bellum:

Athenians
Infantry and Naval civilization
Unique unit: Taxiarch (Athenian infantry, which gives additional attack to nearby Spearmen.)

Unique technologies:
1A. Solonian Reforms (Farmers slowly generate gold in addition to food)
1B. Draconian Reforms (Spearmen and Taxiarchs +3 attack)
2A. Euthytonon (Crossbowmen +2 range)
2B. Delian League (Taxiarchs have 33% of their gold cost replaced with food)

Civilization bonuses:

  • Technologies cost -10% Early Antiquity, -15% Middle Antiquity, -20% Imperial Age
  • Polyremes fire 25% faster
  • Barracks and Archery Ranges cost -50 wood
  • Advanced Weaponry free
  • Spearmen cost -33% wood
  • Team bonus: Universities work 80% faster

See? It even have a theme of Athens being a beacon of knowledge with the universities working faster and technologies costing less. If we change the spearman bonuses to Hoplites it would match the fantasy much better than the all over the place we have currently.

The Spartans are even more extreme:

Spartans
Infantry civilization
Unique unit: Hippeus (Spartan heavy infantry with high pierce armor but slow which is strong against infantry and buildings.)

Unique technologies:
1A. Makhai (Infantry receive -66% bonus damage)
1B. Skeuophoroi (Hippeis move 15% faster)
2A. Kryptia (Infantry deal 33% more bonus damage)
2B. Peloponnesian League (Polyremes +4 attack)

Civilization bonuses:

  • Infantry attack 33% faster starting in Early Antiquity Age
  • Barracks technologies cost -50%
  • Infantry +1 melee armor in Middle Antiquity and Imperial Age (+2 total)
  • Skirmishers +1 pierce armor
  • Start with +1 villager
  • Warships +1 ship armor in the Middle Antiquity Age
  • Team bonus: Blacksmiths work 80% faster

Now this looks like a full infantry civ that no other can match head on.

lmao
I really did not liked the mutually exclusive techs. I think the only way to work is like the Polemarch aura choice, where you choose something differente for the SAME unit and I hope they change the design in this path. Otherwise it will keep feeling like you have to intentionally shot yourself in the foot and its not a choice at all.

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