Civ concept: The Khazars (Economy/Trade Civ)

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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A unique civilization concept, with focus on gold and trade economy: The Khazars (Khazarians).

From Wikipedia:
“The Khazars ([/ˈxɑːzɑːrz/] were a semi-nomadic semitic people (possibly related to today’s Ashkenazi Jews) that in the late 7th-century AD established a major commercial empire covering the southeastern section of modern European Russia, southern Ukraine, Crimea, and Kazakhstan. They created what for its duration was the most powerful polity to emerge from the break-up of the Western Turkic Khaganate. Astride a major artery of commerce between Eastern Europe and Southwestern Asia, Khazaria became one of the foremost trading empires of the early medieval world, commanding the western marches of the Silk Road and playing a key commercial role as a crossroad between China, the Middle East and Kievan Rus. For some three centuries (c. 650–965) the Khazars dominated the vast area extending from the Volga-Don steppes to the eastern Crimea and the northern Caucasus.”

Civ concept/identity in the game: The Khazars have a very open tech tree, with most Imperial Age units available. But while not a single of these units are fully upgradable (missing a lot of Imperial Age Blacksmith upgrades), they compensate this with a very strong gold economy, achieved in unique ways. Their role/niche as an economic trade civilization truly comes to life in Team Games, due to several civ bonuses and unique technologies that affects not only themselves, but their whole team.

Khazars: Economic Civilization

Civ bonus #1: Trade carts generate extra gold (+50% in Castle Age, +100% in Imperial Age)

Civ bonus #2: Military technologies/upgrades (at Barracks, Stables, Archery Ranges and Siege Workshops) costs -50% gold.
(For example: Cavalier to Paladin now costs 1300f, 375g (-375g).

Civ bonus #3: Market trades by any enemy player earns the Khazars a 10% commission in gold.

  • For example, enemy buys wood/food/stone at the market for 400 gold. In actuality, he will only receive resources worth 360 gold, while the Khazar player receives the remaining 40 gold for free. Other example: An enemy sells 10,000 wood for 1400 gold in late Imperial Age. But he will only receive 1260 gold, as the remaining 140 will go to the Khazar player. To receive these collections, the Khazars needs a Market.

In Team Games, only the enemy players will be affected and the commission per trade is slightly reduced. In a 2vs2, the commission per player is 9%. In a 3vs3, it is 8%. In a 4vs4, it is 7%)

Civ bonus #4: Can build Trade Shop (available from Feudal Age)

Team Bonus: Spies are 50% cheaper

Unique building (available from Feudal Age): “Trade Shop”. Increases the collection rate of mining camps within a 5 tile radius by 20%. (For example, if a stone miner drops off 10 stone to an affected mining camp, the Khazar player will receive 2 extra/free stone upon drop-off (12 stone total). So not only does the collection rate increase by 20%, the actual mines will also last 20% longer. A mining camp can only be affected by one trade shop at a time.) Cost: 125w, 50g
Size: 2x2 tiles
Construction time: 40 seconds
Hit Points: 1000 (Feudal Age), 1200 (Castle Age), 1400 (Imperial Age)
Armor: 1 / 8 (Feudal Age), 2 / 9 (Castle Age), 3 / 10 (Imperial Age)

Trade Shop collection rate boost vs no Trade Shop (generic civ):

Collection rate from mining with no upgrades:
Gold (no Trade Shop): 22 gold/min
Gold: 27 gold/min (+5 / +23%)
Stone (no Trade Shop): 22 stone/min
Stone: 26 stone/min (+4 / +18%)
With Gold Mining and Stone Mining:
Gold (no Trade Shop): 26 gold/min
Gold: 31 gold/min (+5 / +19%)
Stone (no Trade Shop): 25 stone/min
Stone: 30 stone/min (+5 / +20%)
With Gold Shaft Mining and Stone Shaft Mining
(not available for Khazars):
Gold (Generic civ, no Trade Shop): 30 gold/min
Gold: 31 gold/min (+1 / +3%)
Stone (Generic civ, no Trade Shop): 29 stone/min
Stone: 30 stone/min (+1 / +3%)

Additional resources:
From the two 4-tile gold mines in the base (6400 gold), using a Trade Shop all throughout the game will get the Khazar 7680g from those instead (+1280 gold).
For Stone mines (2250 stone), with a Trade Shop they can take 2700 stone (+450 stone).
(The gold amount will be +1080 in case the player is forced to build 4 Trade Shops, since they cost 50g each (also -500w).

UT (Trade Shop): “Arbitrage” (Imperial Age): Boosts wood and food income by +33% for the next 8 minutes. Cost: 325g. (Can only be researched/used once).

Example, Khazars have 60 on food (1200 food/min) and 30 on wood (700 wood/min). After researching this tech, they would collect 1596 food (+396) and 931 wood (+231) for the next 8 minutes. This would net them an extra 3168 food and 1848 wood (supposing that worker efficiency is perfect), or about 5000 resources.

Since selling these resources at the Market would get you about 700 gold (5000 / 7.15) in post-Imperial Age, you could say that this tech gets you +115% resources for the 325 gold invested, compared to their market values. Of course, the trickle of resources are slower than if you were to buy them so it’s not a perfect comparison.

Castle:

UT Castle Age, “Debt Collection”: Light Cavalry units costs -40% food (48 food vs 80) - 300f, 450g). You need to build at least 10 Light Cavalry for the technology to be worthwhile in terms of food cost (not counting the additional gold cost).
UT Imperial Age, “Stealth Wagon”: Own and allied trade carts receive +6/+6 armor. 500w, 750g.

How this technology improves Trade Carts:
VS Elite Skirmisher: 70 spears vs 10. +600%
VS Arbelaster: 18 arrows vs 7. +157%
VS Hussar: 14 hits vs 7. +100%
VS Cavalry Archer: 14 arrows vs 7. +100%
VS Elite Mangudai: 12 arrows vs 6. +100%
VS Paladin: 6 hits vs 4. +50%
VS Cavalier: 7 hits vs 5. +40%

UU Castle: Kievan Mercenary. All-around infantry unit. Can only be hired in groups of 10. Good vs Spearmen and Eagle Warriors. Weak against Heavy Cavalry, Archers and Monks. (Pretty much a Two-Handed Swordsman that costs no food but +75% gold, and is trained much faster).
Cost: 350g (35g per unit)
Upg cost: 700g (gains +4 attack, +1 melee armor)
Training time: 40 seconds (30s after Conscription)
HP: 60 (60)
Attack: 10 (14) - 16
Speed: 1.05 - 1.155
Armor: 0 / 1 (1 / 1) - 4 / 5
Rate of fire: 2.0
Attack bonuses: +4 (6) vs Eagle Warrior, +3 (4) vs Standard Building
Armor class: Infantry, Unique Unit
Conversion resistance: -33%

Castle Age:
VS Pikeman: 6. Killed in 15, 45s. +275%
VS Light Cavalry: 8. Killed in 9. +12.5%
VS Long Swordsman: 7. Killed in 7 (6.44). +0%
VS Berserk: 7. Killed in 5. -29% (Berserk: +40%)
VS Knight: 15. Killed in 6, 10.8s. -64% (Knight: +177%)

Imperial Age:
VS Elite Karambit Warrior: 4. Killed in 7. +75%
VS Elite Eagle (Inca): 4. Killed in 7. +75%
VS Elite Eagle (Aztec): 4. Killed in 5. +20%
VS Elite Eagle (Mayan): 6. Killed in 7. +17%
VS Hussar (Generic): 8. Killed in 9, 17.1s. +7%
VS Helvetian Spearman: 6. Killed in 4, 12.8s. +7%
VS Elite Raider: 6. Killed in 6. +0%
VS Elite Huskarl: 5. Killed in 5. +0%
VS Two-Handed Swordsman: 5. Killed in 5. +0%
VS Champion: 6. Killed in 5. -17% (Champion: +20%)
VS Elite Berserk: 7. Killed in 5. -29% (Berserk: +40%)
VS Cavalier: 13. Killed in 5, 9s. -65% (Cavalier: +160%)
VS Paladin: 17. Killed in 5, 9.5s. -72% (Paladin: +258%)

VS Arbelaster: 12 arrows. (-14% vs Champion. -76% Mayan Eagle.)
Speed: 1.05 (+17% vs Champion. +0% vs Berserk/Huskarl. -16% vs Elite Raider. -19% vs Elite Eagle. -30% vs Hussar.)

Tech tree:

Barracks: Champion, Halberdier
Stable: Paladin, Hussar, Heavy Camel Rider
Archery Range: Heavy Cavalry Archer, Arbelaster, Elite Skirmisher
Siege Workshop: Onager, Capped Ram, Heavy Scorpion, Bombard Cannon
- However, not a single fully upgradable unit, due to missing Blast Furnace, Bloodlines, Thumb Ring, Ring Archer Armor, Supplies and Siege Engineers.

Missing units: Battle Elephant, Elephant Archer, Hand Cannoneer, Siege Onager, Siege Ram, Elite Cannon Galleon
Missing technologies: Blast Furnace, Bloodlines, Thumb Ring, Ring Archer Armor, Siege Engineers, Redemption, Block Printing, Gold Shaft Mining, Stone Shaft Mining

Khazar Hussar:
VS Hussar (Generic): Kills in 16. Killed in 10. -37.5% (Generic: +60%)
VS Champion: Kills in 14, 25.2s. Killed in 6. -52% (Champ: +110%)
VS Arbalester: 19 arrows. (-21% vs Generic. Generic is: +26%)

Khazar Paladin:
VS Cavalier (Generic): Kills in 13, 24.7s.
Killed in 15, 27s. +9%
VS Paladin (Generic): Kills in 17. Killed in 13. -23.5% (Generic Paladin: +31%)
VS Arbelaster: 54 arrows. +54% vs Cavalier. -10% vs Generic Paladin.
Has +20 HP and +1 PA vs a Generic FU Cavalier.
Has -20 HP and -2 Attack vs a Generic FU Paladin.

Khazar Heavy Camel:
VS Cavalier (Generic): Kills in 7.
Killed in 10, 18s. +28.5%
VS Heavy Camel (Byzantine): Kills in 8.
Killed in 8. +0%
VS Paladin (Generic): Kills in 9.
Killed in 8, 15.2s. -16% (Paladin: +18%)
VS Heavy Camel (Berber): Kills in 10.
Killed in 8. -20% (Berber: +25%)
VS Heavy Camel (Saracen): Kills in 12.
Killed in 8. -34% (Saracen: +50%)
VS Arbelaster: 20 arrows. -17% vs Berber. (Generic Camel is +20% stronger)

Conclusion:

The Khazars would be a good civ to have on your team, due to lessening the ability for the enemy team to buy/sell resources at the Market, as well as making your trade line a lot more secure from being destroyed/raided. However it comes at the cost of not having any particularly strong late game units, especially in games where trade is actually used (they have Paladin but it lacks both Bloodlines and Blast Furnace).

In 1vs1s, their early gold and stone economy, along with very fast producing unique units at the Castle, can allow for some interesting strategies in Castle Age (like Castle dropping and then spamming infantry from that Castle into the enemy’s base).

Saving 50% gold on every military upgrade also allows them to have a pretty good Archer play. Combined with Light Cav/Hussars costing 48 food per unit, and the “Arbitrage” tech (researched at the Trade Shop) could give them a nice power spike in early Imperial Age.

What do you think of this civilization concept? Would it be viable/balanced? Fun/interesting or boring/uninteresting?

2 Likes
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Honestly too many of the bonuses revolve around trade and good. Most of these bonuses fall incredibly flat in a non-team game which makes would put them in low tier on most 1v1 maps.

So what do you focus on? Honest question. There’s no tech tree indication pointing your upgrades in any one which way over another so why would I want to play this civ that is unfocused when despite Byzantines also having a few holes In their tech tree most of the units are either good or the bonuses are strong economically and aren’t centered around a mechanic you aren’t using until the rest of the resources are gone anyway.

So a strong gold economy you say. Turks have that but have far more options because they have more techs.

Compared to Chinese this is a civ with unit discounts and no true unit focus tech. The thing is, Chinese have a lot of techs and that really sweet 3 villager bonus.

2 Likes
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Yes, that’s why I gave them 40% cheaper Hussars. This won’t really make much (if any) difference in team games, but it will help them greatly in 1vs1s.

Also, their Trade Shops (incl their Trade Shop UT) helps their eco considerably, so they could potentially be quite powerful in Castle Age and early Imp (perhaps with Crossbows in CA and Arbelasters + Hussars in Imp).

Then their UU, while cost-wise quite gold heavy, is very quick to produce. So a castle drop on the enemy’s face followed by an infantry spam from that castle could possibly be very strong. Not costing any food will help a lot in Castle Age.

Their bonuses are indeed heavily focused on team games. In these games, they would have a supporting role by securing trade as well as slinging their team mates. In terms of military, Halberdiers and Bombard Cannons/Trebs would likely be their best option. They can of course also make Paladins (although quite a bit weaker than generic Paladins) or Arbelasters (missing Thumb Ring and the final armor upgrade, but the Imp armor upgrade isn’t really that important for archers anyway, especially in team games since they likely won’t be fighting other archers head on in these scenarios).

4

I like the novelties of some things and the stats and comparisons on so many things

But there’s quite a few flaws, primarily the civ is much too polarising. Eg You can’t simply compare 1 UU Vs 1 knight.

You’re paying 1/4 the price of a knight. That UU is incredibly OP Vs an opponent that doesn’t make ranged units (aka noob trap). And possibly Vs even ranged civs due to sheer numbers (both TT and cost) with some kind of arena cheese or something.

In comparison, an LS costs nearly half a knight, needs two tech just to get to LS. And then the UU possibly becomes next to useless at some stage of the game because you’re paying 35 gold for a worse than 2 handed swordsman. (Too polarising)

The civ itself will be pretty weak until that castle goes down though. The only impactful bonus is this trade shop, which isn’t even that strong. Considering Turk eco is pretty weak (faster gold generation is the least useful eco 2nd only to stone) and this is just a straight up worse version of Turks at that point of the game

The tech discount really doesn’t help that much , even in castle age.

That market thing is either a gimmick or a noob trap. I don’t like it at all.

The castle age UT is interesting and I like the idea of the fragile hussar as compensation. I think other civs should have done similar (if we had to have a “Teuton” cavskarl it should’ve lacked BL for example)

People in general hate one time UTs, I don’t like that imperial one at all.

1 Like
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Might want to find names less generic for uu and ut’s.

Funny enough the hun uu is a khazar unit.

Tarkhan was used among the Sogdian,[4] Saka, Hephthalite, Turkic, and proto-Mongol peoples of Central Asia and by other Eurasian nomads. It was a high rank in the army of Timur. Tarkhans commanded military contingents (roughly of regimental size under the Turkic Khazars) and were, roughly speaking, generals. They could also be assigned as military governors of conquered regions.

3 Likes
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This version of Khazars ignores major aspects of the civ, their strong focus on siegeworks, their strong religious tolerance and great cavalry.

Honestly I’d go back to the drawing board. Never EVER dare design a civ to only be good in team games again!

7

With that third bonus, would people even want to use any civ besides Khazars?

8

Why do you feel the need to be toxic/derogatory to the civ designs of others?

9

I know you think I’m evil but in this case the design is poor. I get you don’t like me for… some reason? But you really have this need to fill that hole left by Allergictable you have the wrong idea. I only want civs to be good enough to add.

Tough love maybe but I didn’t say “go hurt yourself” I said design more expertly.

Honestly whatever animosity we have I’d love to put aside and quit maybe single my me out? I never singled you out yet so why should we go down a dark path? I’d rather we get along

10

I don’t think you’re evil or anything, but I do feel like you can sometimes be unnecessarily harsh about the civ proposals of others, as if to make yours seem more important. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but that’s how it seems sometimes.

11

Fair points. Good food for thought. But you’d still need a Castle, and a lot of gold available. These units get destroyed by Knights (you need three of them to kill one Knight). So just having 4 Knights will take care of a batch of 10 UUs.

Would upping the +20% collection rate to +25% make it strong enough? Then it’d essentially be +30% (from 10 gold/stone per drop-off without upgrades to 13).

Either way, this could be used not just to get more gold or stone. Lets say you are going for Feudal Age archers. In a normal build order, you’ll likely have 8 on gold to constantly produce from two ranges. With the Trade Shop at 20%, you’d only need 7 (so one extra villager to put on either wood or food). With Trade Shop at 25%, you’d only need 6 villagers on gold (so two extra vills on wood/food).

But why? I think it could add more strategic factors to consider. I don’t find it OP at all (like the Sicilian/Burgundian techs). It is just another way to slightly help their relatively weak Imperial Age and give them a bit of a boost there. It also likely wouldn’t be an “automatic” buy, since you’d need a decent eco with at least 50-60 farmers and a good amount of vills on wood to make it worthwhile. And if you are going for gold heavy units and need the resources immediately, you may also do better to skip researching this tech.

12

I don’t find it OP at all. But it does make an enemy think twice before using the Market.

13

Yes it is not super strong I guess.

Examples of how much gold you save due to the bonus (from teching into various unit compositions):

  1. Hussar + Paladin + Halberdier = Saves 1195 gold
  2. Arbelaster + Hussar + Onager = Saves 887 gold

Do you have any suggestions for a better/more fitting bonus? Maybe they wouldn’t get Cavalier and could upgrade straight from Knight into Paladin? And then this upgrade could cost -50%. So once they hit Imp, they can immediately upgrade their Knights into Paladins for the cost of 700f, 375g.

Another idea (that would help them in Castle Age) could be that they get Onager available in Castle Age and for free as well. So they can’t make Mangonels in CA, only Onagers. Together with their gold bonus from the Trade Shop this would give them a very strong Crossbow + Siege push.

14

Here’s the thing. Nobody is really going to use paladins thet have Byzantine equivalent stats unless resources are just springing . Burgundians at least have a fuller discount and cavalier available an age ago.

This civ? You save 525g going for Paladin but that’s still a very hungry food investment for a less than stellar unit. You can argue in favor of Hussars with the 40% discount.

The issue is that the civ isn’t generic; It wishes it was. Honestly if you extended the gold discount bonus to all techs including age up you might be on to something. It wouldn’t be much but having 25g more after Loom is a huge Drush boon. And this bonus really really wants you to have blood lines as that’s the other tech that really benefits from early gold saving to such a massive degree.

All in all the problem is that in the fear of making the civ avoid being generic you have gone down a path that has them focus on an aspect that doesn’t win games until late and in a 4v4 being 3.5v4 means you’ll never get to the trade wars. If you want a trade bonus the Spanish will long term serve you better because they have a lot of strong and fully viable units to play around with.

There are no power spikes until trade where gold does start to spring eternal but I think you deliberately wanted to make the military too weak to compensate too strong a trade bonus but if you replaced all those trade bonuses with say +25 starting all resources you’d have a far stronger civ from the getgo. I’d also give them Steppe Lancers not for balance but because it fits thematically. Remember the Cumans even get their wrecked Wonder so…