Civilization Craft: Armenians

The Armenians would represent medieval Armenia, including Greater Armenia, the Bagratid Kingdom of Armenia, Turkish Armenia, and Georgian Armenia. Their main focus would be heavy cavalry and siege, as their specialty was historically. They would have the Caucasian/Orthodox architecture set, shared with the Georgians and potentially the Bulgarians and Byzantines.

Their Wonder would be the Cathedral of Ani, restored to its former glory.

Civilization Bonuses:

  • 25% of age up cost refunded after advancing
  • Stable units +1 attack per age (starting in Feudal Age)
  • Monks +1 conversion range in Castle, +1 in Imperial Age (for +2 total)
  • Mangonel line deals half damage to friendly units

Team bonus: Baptistery available in the Castle Age

Unique Unit: Ayruzdi (anti-cavalry cavalry unit)

Unique Building: Baptistery (building that constantly heals nonsiege units within a certain radius)

Unique Technologies: Baptism (Baptisteries +2 heal range), Nakharar (no minimum range for Scorpion line and Trebuchets)

what is the tech tree look like? also, stats on the UU?

Good question.

At the Barracks, they’re only missing the Halberdier, but they are missing Blast Furnace due to the cavalry attack bonus, so their infantry is a bit weaker. The cavalry attack bonus used to apply to infantry as well, but I took that away because it overlapped with the Burmese. Overall, their infantry is pretty average to below average.

At the Archery Range, they’re missing Heavy Cavalry Archer, and also lack Ring Archer Armor and Bracer, so they’re also pretty below average.

In terms of cavalry, they’re missing the Hussar (which is meant to prioritize the Knight line) and all the regional cavalry units, naturally. They are missing Blast Furnace, but the attack bonus should make up for that, especially since they’re otherwise fully upgraded.

Their siege is really good. They have all siege units and upgrades available except for the Armored Elephant of course, and they have that Mangonel bonus which makes firing into your army a lot less risky, and Nakharar makes their Scorpions significantly less vulnerable. So they’re probably a top-tier siege civilization.

At the Monastery, they’re only missing Herbal Medicine and Illumination. Since they have Block Printing, their bonus stacks with it, giving their Monks the longest conversion range in the game.

At the University, they are only missing Bombard Tower, and in terms of economic upgrades, they’re missing Crop Rotation and Stone Shaft Mining.

At the Dock, they’re missing the Heavy Demo Ship and, bizarrely, the entire Cannon Galleon line, so they won’t be great on water, since they can’t raid the coastline very well, especially without Bracer.

Seems to me this is a Lithuanians/Ethiopians rip off.

the 25% return on age up cost gives 125 extra food in feudal (as opposed to Lithuanians +150 at start, or Ethiopians 100 food/100 gold on age up), which gives them a stellar scout rush, further exascerbated by giving them an extra attack for free.

Then you roll into castle age and this civ has knights with +2 attack extra for free, which is obviously very similar to the Lithuanians bonus. Yes i know they lose blast furnace to make up for it, but frankly that to me feels cheap.
this civ gets paladins with +3 attack total for zero investment and with a better long term economy then Lithuanians, whereas Lithuanians has a better early economy (But weaker economy overall), weak early castle age, and has to invest to get their maximum POTENTIAL +4 attack. Given a choice I’ll take +3 guaranteed every single time. (especially since said bonus cannot be lost, unlike Lithuanians).

Just seems like a slap in the face to them in general. Not to mention giving them a similar UU.

Missing Halbs is a huge no no, as it really leaves them in a bind against other Paladin civs if they fall behind.

Y’all are killing me with this.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s just a rip-off of the Ethiopians and Lithuanians. I tried to give it a unique identity, but I’m just one person and I can’t keep track of every bonus and advantage in the game. I think it’s actually one of my most unique ideas, and keep in mind, the Lithuanian bonus only kicks in AFTER relics are collected. The Armenian cavalry bonus comes in immediately. (I just realized you said that, so sorry about that.)

The first bonus is a bit different from the Ethiopian bonus, since it’s directly dependent on the cost of the age upgrade, and is a bit weaker overall, since its maximum benefit comes in the Imperial Age.

yeah, which instantly makes this bonus much better. zero downside. zero investment. yeah it’s not as high extra overall, but it’s literally free and no downside. look at that from that point of view.
he has to actually work for his bonus and you get yours for free, all off the back of a better castle age economy.

Even the Unique unit seems like a Leitis knock off, seeing as killing cavalry cost effectively is exactly the bright spot of the Leitis.

I don’t understand how. Armenian cavalry was some of the best of its day, historically speaking, so it makes complete sense to give them fantastic cavalry. Besides, the Lithuanians have the potential to have very strong knights overall, whereas the Armenian potential is a lot lower due to missing Blast Furnace.

They’re not similar at all. Ayruzdi have a high cavalry attack bonus and can easily obliterate any other cavalry on the field. They aren’t all that good against other types of units, especially the spear line, which is cost effective against them.

you’re literally giving them the benefits of the Lithuanians bonus, without the downside of it, and without the investment. yeah it doesn’t have as much potential on the top end, but between +2 in castle and 3 in imp, without a downside and for free vs +4 in castle and imp (with investment required) and can be lost, i’ll take the guarantee.

Lithuanians don’t have BF either.

uh that’s exactly what the Leitis does in a sense. it doesn’t have the high bonus damage, but combinining high base with ignoring armor and low gold cost means they easily trade very cost effectively vs cavalry.

Spears shred the Leitis as well.

Keep in mind that cavalry is basically the ONLY good Armenian option besides siege, and their army is incredibly gold-intensive, so they’ll struggle in the late game when gold is low. The Lithuanians have pretty good trash, which the Armenians don’t, so look at it from that perspective.

so again, what’s the cost on their UU?

with LC with extra attack? and how many games actually reach the no gold point? furthermore, whether you think about it or not, they are absolutely going to need halbs. Its required for any paladin civ to have them. so yeah their trash isn’t going to be that bad.

and Armenians literally have a better economy, and better siege then Lithuanians.

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Ayruzdi would be significantly more expensive than Leitis, which would be the main difference.

Based on your replies, is it possible you’re just upset that this civ idea has the potential to upstage the Lithuanians?

Every idea I make is met with an insane amount of hostility, so I don’t know why I keep doing this. I’m just trying to have fun and come up with new content, but everyone always tears them apart. I guess I should just keep them to myself from now on.

I don’t see that being the case. Their one-time partial age up refund is literally their ONLY economy bonus. Can you explain?

I haven’t really thought about it, but I’m gonna go with 95 food and 85 gold.

No, my problem is they are basically Lithuanians copy
Similar eco bonus, just differently implemented and better long term.
Similar attack bonus, just free, guaranteed, and can’t be lost. not as much upside but not nearly as much downside.
Similar UU role

The only real difference is Armenians have better Siege and worse trash.

Sure - In the Long term they are going to get more resources (125 food upon hitting fuedal, 200 food and 50 gold upon hitting castle age, and 250 food and 200 gold upon hitting imp) compared to a 1 time 150 food.

Let me put it this way.
In Dark age Lithuanians is better. they can age up earlier but will be behind economoically by doing so, or age up at a normal time and have 150 extra food for whatever their plan is.
In feudal age Armenians will get 125 food (so 25 less then Lithuanians) but also have free extra 1 attack on their scouts.
they then hit castle, and while gasp, Lithuanians have to throw down a monastery (275 resources) and try to collect relics to get anything going (early castle is when Lithuanians really struggle), Armenians will get another free dump of food giving them another 200 food and 50 gold, and their knights will have +2 attack right away.
then you hit Imp and both civs don’t have blast furnace, and Armenians get +3 attack for free, again no downside, can’t be lost, and Lithuanians is entirely up to how many relics they managed to get. Meanwhile Armenians just got another 450 free resources to easily put towards affording either More Cavaliers or Paladin.

Yes. Lithuanians has a higher upside with 4 relics granting +4 attack, but they have to invest into a monastery, monks, and actually grab those relics for it to happen. they can also lose that bonus.

Armenians has no such weakness.

With that kind of cost i would hope this unit would be more then just something with high anti cav damage, otherwise it’s never gonna see the light of day.

Well, I also decided that it works well as a general-purpose cavalry unit due to its stats. Its attack wouldn’t be super high, but it would have a lot of armor and HP, so it would have low unit turnover as long as it’s protected from spears. Camels wouldn’t be a good counter, of course, because of the Ayruzdi’s own anti-cavalry damage.

again with that kind of cost, it’s not likely to see much play unless its stats are absurd. look at the cataphract for example.

Camels don’t have the cavalry armor class. only camel armor class.

Oh yeah, you’re right. I guess they would ultimately be pretty cost-effective then.

Well, if you find another way to set it apart from the Leitis that it apparently is similar to, although not really, please let me know.

The problem is i don’t see much way to make it unique without making it overlap with anything.

Can’t I just keep it the way it is then? I specifically wanted the Ayruzdi to basically be the cavalry version of the Jaguar Warrior.

i mean you can do what you want, but a cavalry unique unit that costs 170 resources isn’t likely to see much use unless you really give it something going for it.