Civilization Idea: Khazars


Now that the term “Khazar” is no longer censored (thanks @DodoNotDoDo!), I felt comfortable posting my civ concept for them, since I don’t have to dance around the term anymore.

Like the Alans, this is yet another civ concept that I posted on the wiki, which is part of my Caucasus expansion concept. The Khazars represent the nomadic Khazars, the Khazar Khaganate, and other areas under Khazar control. They can also represent their predecessors the Gokturks, who are currently represented by the Tatars. The Khazars have the Central Asian architecture set, but have a unique Castle in the style of Sarkel, a ruined version of which is the Cuman Wonder. The Khazar Wonder is Mangup Fortress, a Crimean Goth structure that fell under Khazar control in the 8th century.

The Khazars are a cavalry archer and siege civilization, but the former is actually completely generic until the Imperial Age, aside from a garrison bonus and a cavalry archer unique unit. Siege weapons get much more focus in the earlier stages of the game, which makes the Khazars strong on maps like Arena.

Anyway, moving onto their bonuses.

Civilization Bonuses

  • Unit upgrades cost -50% gold

This references how the Khazar khagan would take money from noblemen to help fund the growth of his army. The Khazars also had a lot of gold income due to access to the Silk Road.

  • Mounted units can be garrisoned in Rams and Siege Towers

This references the combination of heavy cavalry and siege weaponry that was employed during the Third Perso-Turkic War. Tong Yabghu Khagan led an army of heavy cavalry to pillage Derbent after the Khazar siege weapons successfully broke through. In fact, the Gokturks weren’t good with siege weapons, so one Soviet historian credited the Khazars with the successful siege of Derbent’s fortress.

  • Additional Castles cost -35%

The Khazars built quite a few fortresses all throughout the Caucasus and Central Asia, though none have managed to survive to this day. One notable example, Sarkel, is the Cuman Wonder, or, rather, a ruined version of it.

  • Siege weapons created 50% faster

Once again, this references Khazar skill in siege weaponry, not only during the Third Perso-Turkic War, but also during the first Battle of Balanjar, where the Arabs and Khazars fought back and forth with catapults and ballistas. Notably, this applies to all siege weapons, including Trebuchets, so this adds a bit of historical depth, as during the Third Perso-Turkic War, the Byzantines, who were on the side of the Khazars, used traction trebuchets in sieges.

  • Market technologies free

  • Team bonus: Trade units +20% HP

These two bonuses reference the vast trade network that was safely present under the Pax Khazarica after the Khazars managed to take control of the Silk Road.

Unique Unit: Arsiyah

  • This is a cavalry archer unit that gains +1 attack for every 25% of its HP taken. Since the final 25% would be death, that means the Arsiyah can have a total of +3 extra attack. Since the normal Arsiyah has 4 attack (with the Elite having 5), with the two archer attack upgrades researched and only 25% HP left, that gives the Arsiyah a total of 9 attack.

  • Even with only a damage boost of 1, it still greatly impacts the Arsiyah’s effectiveness, because the extra 1 damage ignores armor. This makes the Arsiyah quite good against skirmishers or other high-pierce armor targets, because even a partially damaged Arsiyah does a guaranteed 2 damage.

  • With an HP value of 60 (75 for Elite), and a pierce armor value of 1 (2 for Elite), the Arsiyah is actually quite tanky for a mounted archer and holds up well in sustained combat, which only makes its gimmick more effective. Its pierce armor value is actually the same as a Conquistador’s, and it has even more HP, so despite the low attack, they are quite comparable against ranged units. In fact, the Elite Arsiyah has the highest HP of any mounted archer designed for mobility (so not including the Elephant Archer, War Wagon, and Ratha).

  • The Arsiyah were a group of Muslim mercenaries hired by the Khazars to protect the Khagan. Despite being in the employ of the Khazars, they often operated independently, sometimes even against the interest of their employers. However, they specifically prevented the Khazars from using them to fight other Muslims. Due to their name, some scholars believe that they have an Alanian origin. They were also known as Ursiyya, Lariçiyeh, or al-Larisiya.

Unique Techs
Balanjar Wagon Fort: Rams and Siege Towers gain +5 garrison space; rams cost -75% gold.

  • Cost: 750 wood, 250 gold

  • This technology, though situational, complements the Khazars’ innate bonus allowing mounted units to garrison in Rams and Siege Towers. The bonus combined with the tech allow for a surprise Siege Tower drop on maps like Arena, filling the Siege Towers with cavalry or cavalry archers, depositing them on the other side of a wall, and attacking the enemy base. This is especially effective if Arsiyah are involved, as they can hit and run effectively without retaliation.

  • The other effect of the technology is to reduce the gold cost of the Ram line by 75%. This makes rams cost only 19 gold, which is significantly more affordable than 75 gold (it’s actually slightly less than a standard swordsman’s gold cost). This, combined with much faster production, makes massing rams much easier than before, though the wood cost remains the same. The tech’s gold cost actually pays itself back after approximately 3 rams, so the impact is quite massive.

  • In 723, during the start of the Second Arab-Khazar War, the Khazar capital city of Balanjar was besieged. To defend the city, the residents tied 300 wagons together to form a makeshift wagon fort. Unfortunately, the defense was futile, the Arabs broke through, and a large number of the residents were slaughtered or enslaved.

Khagan Bek: Archery Ranges work 100% faster

  • Cost: 850 food, 600 gold

  • Many of the Khazars’ strongest units are Archery Range units, so this helps immensely with massing them. Although they aren’t any cheaper to train, they are cheaper to upgrade, which certainly helps. Cavalry Archers become especially attractive compared to the Arsiyah, which is trained from extra-cheap Castles.

  • A khagan bek was the military commander of Khazaria. The term either refers to the divided power between the khagan and the bek or the title itself was “khagan bek.” Either way, the khagan ran the administrative, everyday section of the government, while the bek controlled the military. Some historians believe the khagan was simply a ceremonial leader with no real power, and the bek had all the authority. At any given time, the Khazar state had a relatively small army, but if extra troops were needed, they could be taken from the personal armies of nobles to multiply the size of the army two- or three-fold.

Tech Tree

Missing Units: Champion, Halberdier, Elephant Archer line, Hand Cannoneer, Paladin, Battle Elephant line, Steppe Lancer line, Siege Ram, Bombard Cannon, Fast Fire Ship, Cannon Galleon.

Missing Techs: Supplies, Redemption, Heresy, Sanctity, Block Printing, Hoardings, Scale Mail Armor, Keep, Treadmill Crane, Bombard Tower, Crop Rotation, Stone Shaft Mining, Dry Dock, Shipwright.

5 Likes

What does this mean? First castle cost normal resources and second one and forth cost less?

Why does this civi lack SL line? They are right next to cumans.

Yes. You have to pay 650 stone for the first Castle, but then any after that cost 422 stone.

I just felt like it didn’t fit their playstyle. I dunno, I guess they can have it.

This is definitely OP, just due to how much gold you save across the board. They might not have paladin. They might not have halb, or champ. But it’s still a massive amount of gold saved.

This is just weird. Particularly siege towers. It’ll look absurd having them ungarrison over walls.

Having the cost change is strange, and I also dislike how it’s pretty extreme. The Franks castle bonus is literally being nerfed, adding another Castle discount seems like a really bad idea.

This is OP for sling. People are just going to use this for ridiculous TG strats.

2 Likes

It’s not really that OP, as most of that gold comes in the late game. But maybe I can nerf it to 33%.

Well, AoE2 is a game of abstraction, so things don’t always have to make logical sense.

Why, though? It’s pretty unique, and doesn’t allow for any kind of early Castle drop.

It was originally 15%, which someone on the wiki said was way too weak. They preferred the 35% number, as it was a compromise between the Franks and Slavs.

Well, I designed the civ long before the Frank nerf was announced, but in light of that nerf, I decided to remove Hoardings so that the Castles are easier to destroy. I can always take away Architecture too.

I don’t really see how. Market techs aren’t THAT impactful.

The tribute techs for free gives massive savings if you sling a lot, which is what people are bound to do.

Yes, but horses climbing ladders to jump walls is a bit too far fetched I think.

It’s not just that, it lets you hit better timings + numbers with techs like Crossbow, which then snowballs advantage.

Yes, but it still feels strange to me.

Very cool bonus. You didn’t mention it. So I’m assuming melee cavalry don’t increase the speed and attack bonus against building. And I think it is good balance in this way.

Needs to be slowed down a bit, maybe 33%.

Well, if that’s the case, then I guess that’s what people will do. I don’t really see a reason to try to limit people’s fun. Slinging is banned in tourneys anyway, and it has no effect in 1v1.

Perhaps so. However, despite the illogic, I still feel that the bonus is unique and gives the Khazars a special identity.

According to one person’s math, the total gold saved is about 3000, which is actually not that insane in the context of other bonuses, like the Chinese one.

Fair enough.

You know, I haven’t really thought about it. Maybe they’d just function like infantry in that regard. But given the recent speed buff to rams, maybe they don’t need it.

You think so? Siege weapons are actually created kinda slowly. Mangonels, for instance, would still need 23 seconds to train after the bonus, which is not much faster than a knight - and it’s far less versatile and much more vulnerable. Though, you have a point - maybe 33% would be better. I’ll have to do the math.

I tend to agree with @TheConqueror753’s critiques, but there’s one other thing that stood out that I wanted to comment on:

With all that, I was expecting them to miss out on Siege Ram and/or Siege Engineers. You have FU rams that are produced very quickly, can garrison +5, including cav, and are nearly trash units after the UT. For reference, when fully garrisoned, these will be just a hair slower than full Mongol siege rams, and incredibly spammable even on low gold. I know that you can justify this on the basis of the existing Roman scorpion bonus that combines a massive discount with some remarkable buffs, but I continue to think that that’s terrible design that’s just a legacy of the civ being designed insufficient rigor (not intended for ranked). And that set a bad precedent, especially if applied to unit lines less niche than scorpions. I’m sure you don’t want to remove SE, but this civ could definitely lose Siege Ram, and would still have high incentives to make rams in lategame.

I would buff this. Someone had +100% in another thread, which I think was too much, but this seems too little. IMO the sweet spot would be in the 33-50% range.

2 Likes

Yeah, your point is well taken. Siege Ram is probably a good omission. I need to be more careful about balance with this civ, because it’s going to be in an actual mod that I’m currently working towards creating.

It was originally a shared unique tech that gave a flat +30 HP to Trade Carts. Maybe I can go with something similar.

1 Like

I don’t want to completely ruin the bonus, but I guess stupidly OP strategies in team games should be avoided. So maybe just Caravan and Guilds will be free. It fits the same theme historically, but removes the cheese.

1 Like

It is probably the only civilization where Judaism could be even considered as the main religion (historians are not sure how widespread was the conversion to Judaism), so maybe some civ bonus could refer to that?

2 Likes

Flavourful civ design as usual, my dude. However, I have to say that I have mixed feelings about this one.

The first one, as many have pointed out, is the unit upgrade cost part. That is most definitely broken. But that’s not necessarily because of the savings, it’s because of the power spikes. Imagine playing mongols against Khazars. Before Mongols can get elite mangudai/heavy cav archer, Khazars will have heavy CA, and would have saved up enough for Siege Onagers.

This would give them a devastatingly early switch to crossbows in the early game, and cav archers/siege in the late game. Compare this to the chinese, who were considered as one of the most flexible civs and their bonus was Technologies are 10%/15%/20%/25% cheaper in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age before the nerf. Imo, this bonus also needs to split like this, with a maximum of 25% in the imperial age. You can up it to 33% if you remove Siege Onager.

This is a cute bonus, but I don’t know how useful this would be. Even with the cheaper ram-line, I don’t know where this could be useful. But it has nice flavour, so I don’t mind it.

This has two problems imo. First, it overlaps too much with the frank bonus. And two, if you want to give cheaper castles (especially at such a steep discount), you can’t give them masonry, architecture, and hoardings. The comparison here is both franks and teutons, both of whom have cheaper and stronger castles, but lack bracer. I wouldn’t want to remove bracer from a cav archer civ, so those castles have to be weak.

This is my favourite part of the civ tbh. This encourages threading that fine line between death and damage. You might even be encouraged to do interesting things like attacking your own cav archers with your onagers for that extra damage. You’ll also get better results if you can micro your low HP units to the front and away from enemies, while still keeping them alive.

The problem, though, is the combination of this unit with rams. That means skirms are useless as a counter unit. I don’t think that’s a huge issue, but we’ll have to see.

On a last note, you can’t give the civ siege rams with such a huge discount. The trend is either you give stronger than FU units with a bonus, or weaker units at a discount. There are maybe 4 exceptions, but those are exceptions for a very good reason. The exceptions are mayans, portugese, italians, and romans. Romans are terribly designed imo, so that’s a separate topic. None of the other three get such huge discounts.

So, in my opinion, you need to find a balance between the discount, giving them siege ram, and siege engineers. You can’t have all 3.

The thing is, I originally had it as -20%, but someone on the wiki was not a fan. He explained that the Chinese bonus saved a lot more resources overall while more generally useful (this was before the nerf). The Khazar bonus would save only about 3000 gold, which was nowhere close to the Chinese bonus. Again, this was the before the nerf, so things are different now.

I’m willing to stagger the bonus, from 20% in Feudal, 25% in Castle, and 33% in Imperial Age, but that would make it more similar to Chinese.

I don’t want to take away Siege Onager, since I decided to take away Siege Ram, I can nerf the creation speed boost so the mass isn’t as insane.

It can allow for a really cheesy, Poop Lord-esque surprise cavalry push on Arena, where you load cav or CA into a Siege Tower and deposit them on the other side. Actually, I feel like the Khazars would be a top-tier Arena civ in other ways.

I did end up taking away Hoardings before posting it, but I can take away Architecture too. Or maybe an all-new bonus would be better.

I did end up taking away Siege Ram due to earlier feedback, so you’re not the first one to express this concern.

1 Like

So I’m a bit on the fence with the Team Bonus. I don’t like when team bonuses don’t also help in 1v1. However I’m much more ok with it when it applies to trade and that trade netting more resources.

So I’m generally in agreement with @SirWiedreich though I’d argue 33% HP might still even be too low. Compare spanish or Bengali TB how many extra resources that can net you. Even the Bohemians market working faster can help get trade going faster, and technically can help you research guilds faster in 1v1.

A smidge more HP just seems like poor recompense for being useless in 1v1. I think +50% hp is good tho. It may not directly net you more resources, but if it saves a considerable amount of carts, then you save the resources of the carts and the lost gold from temporarily being down that cart.

2 Likes

I’ve a habit of creating civ without any historical context. Here is a design of a CA+Siege civ with SL in the tech tree. As I’m not good with history, it is a bit random and not for Khazars specifically.

Civilization Bonus

  • Shepherds and hunters work 15% faster.
  • CA fires 1 extra arrow. Extra arrow has 75% accuracy (Can’t be increased by Thumbring), 0 melee and 3 pierce damage.
  • SL fires 25% faster.
  • Rams cost 30% less wood.

Team Bonus

Mill, Lumber camp, Mining camp gives +5 population space.

Unique Technologies

  1. LC, SL and CA regenerate 15 HP/min.
  2. Rams deal +50% bonus damage.

Unique Unit

Cavalry (70 food, 35 gold)
HP : 85, 110
Attack : 8, 10
+4, +5 vs Archer
Melee Armor : 0, 1
Pierce Armor : 3
Firing Rate : 1.9
Speed : 1.45
LOS : 5
Training Time : 14 , 12
Elite Upgrade : 750 food, 800 gold

Technology Tree

Barracks : No Champion, Eagle, Supplies, Gambeson
Archery Range : No Arbalester, Elephant Archer line, Hand Cannoneer
Stable : No Paladin, Camel line, Battle Elephant line
Siege Workshop : No SR, BBC
Blacksmith : No last armor for infantry.
Eco : No Last farm and stone upgrade.
University : No Architecture, Fortified Wall, Keep, Heated Shot, BBT
Dock : No Heavy Demo, Fast Fire Ship, Elite Cannon Galleon, Shipwright
Monastery : No Heresy, Redemption, Atonement, Faith, Theocracy
Castle : No Sapper

2 Likes

CA regenerating health might be too similar to Maghrebi Camels + Camel Archers. CA firing extra arrows seems pretty similar to kipchaks.

I think there are only three flavors of HCA/CA UU that aren’t filled in the game currently that could be viable.

  1. atk bonus vs cavalry. Basically a mounted genoese xbowman.
  2. Super short range but high DPM. 3-5 range with high atk or high ROF.
  3. Super long range, 10ish range, but garbage DPM.

Technically and anti-building CA unit isn’t currently in the game, but I think that’d be very hard to balance.

Wouldnt Khazars be a civ known for using lots of lances

That’s what I came up with for the Alan UU.

Do you think that the Khazars not having any infantry armor upgrades at all is harsh?