Civilizations and further splits

Often people say we already have enough European civilizations.
But i don’t think they’re finished. And i think that the HRE is slowly being reformed and so are the Slavs. And ofcourse we need more african and american civs.

I’m looking at a map of 900 and 1200 in a history book of mine.
First i think the Teutons should be renamed to the Holy Roman Empire.
The Teutons were a crusader order who are known for forming Prussia in the Baltic states. And don’t represent the Holy Roman Empire.

It says northern italy (genua, florence and rome) belong to the Holy Roman Empire. Sicily is its own kingdom, and Venice is independent. Bohemia and Burgundia actually belong to the Holy Roman Empire. Burgundia and the Provence were protectorates of the HRE and were formed into a new state Burgundia within the HRE.
So i would expect to come: Venice, Denmark and Utrecht.
Venice was independent and competed with the Byzantine Empire and with Siciliy. And became a famous seafaring citystate.
I can see a split coming for the Vikings maybe because there already was Denmark, Norway and Sweden at the time. We kinda miss the Finns there who were invaded by Sweden at the time and were bordered by Novgorod.
So the Burgundians, The Bohemians, The Italians were already reforms of The Teutons. All the border civs have their own forms now. Except, in my opinion the Dutch.
Which come in the form of Utrecht which was the biggest power at the time. A citystate ruled by a Bishop which ruled most of the inlands of lower germania. Which in the Netherlands we today know as Gelderland, Overijssel, Drenthe and Groningen. These events happened around the timeframe of AoE2 1220. Only in the late medieval times take Flanders. But then we are talking about 1500-1600. So Flemish revolution should actually be considered out of the picture. Because in that time frame you would have to redo HRE into many duchies and small city states. Thus a general faction should do better.
So i think for now the HRE is reformed except the Teutons themselves should be renamed to HRE.

The map also shows the Rus and all of its tiny states and the republic of Novgorod (duchies of Vladimir, Smolensk, Polotsk, Turov, Chernigov, Murom, Perejaslav, Kiev, Volhynië and Galicia) and next to them are the Cumans, Bulgars, Magyars, Lithuanians and Poles.
What misses here are Georgia and the Alans.
And we miss the Balkans: Croatia, Servs, Moravians. But the map shows them to be part of the Byzantine Empire.

Outside of Europe:
In Africa we already have Mali and Ethiopia. We could also add the Kanem-Bornu Empire (Hausa), and the Sudanese with the Makkura empire and the Alwa/Alodia kingdom.
In south america i’m not knowledgeable about the variety on the natives along the pacific, pardon me for that. But i do imagine there could be a Northern Andes group, a Amazone group.
For central america we already have the Mayans and the Aztecs. Maybe Mixtec, Zapotec, Tlaxcalans, Tarascan, Metztitlan. For the Caribean and northeastern southamerica i would go for the general tribe name Arawak bit that would be a mixture.
For northern america (further north than mexico) we currently have none. I’m not really knowledegable about this region either. But i imagine the advanced desert cultures Anasazi, Mogollon, Hohokam and to add one more civilization for the eastern cultures like the Haudenosaunee. And the Lakota for the center/north. But i imagine the last two would make for very different gameplay.

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I will bet that the next DLC will be around Africa
It is what the community is asking for after the Indian DLC
I will wait patiently next year for the next DLC, my inner child is crying of happiness

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The HRE is already represented the best it could be. There were 4 constituent kingdoms of the HRE each one with its major ethnolinguistic group, and for each one of them we have a civ: Teutons (Germans), Italians, Bohemians and Burgundians

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Terrible idea to add any European civs outside of Vlachs, Serbs, Croats and Swiss and I would not welcome those civs for a while. Other Euro civs are just copies of each other and have nothing new to show. Even if there will be 100 civs I only support the addition of these 4.
I support as many civilizations as possible, but I think the next 10-15 should be non-European.

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people take this too literally. when we say we have enough european civs, we mean for where we are at in the game.
its 18 or 19 of the civs are currently european, out of 39. thats ALMOST HALF. we need to show the rest of the world love too.

no, the teutonic order was a crusader order. Teutons were a germanic/northern european people.

before we add more in europe how about we show the rest of the world some real love?

who you know, were a non entity until age 3 timeframes.

so yeah. lets round out europe, though i don’t think they need nearly as many civs as you want to add, but we should wait until we’ve shown the rest of the world some serious care.

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The Teutons were a tribe during Roman times. Not in Medieval times. What you describe is not how we locals see it :wink:

The next 3 DLC-s be African, American and East Asian to reach 50 civilizations. There are many major powers missing from the Far East, like Tibetans, Khitans, Jurchens… Adding 3 civs to Africa wouldn’t even be enough. The region is terribly underrepresented. The least amount of African civs I can be satisfied with is 10: 3 from each West, East and South and one from North.

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If anything Teutons should be renamed to Germans, then we’d have the 4 kingdoms of the HRE: Germany, Bohemia, Burgundy and Italy. I don’t think they should or would rename an original AoK civ though.

As for crusading orders, they can be represented by the peoples who made them up. Like if most people of a certain crusading order were French then they can be represented by Franks in the campaigns. It’s not normal to make AoE2 civs based around specific states, they’re based around ethnic groups.

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Just a quick addition. The only civs I’d add to Europe would be: Swiss, because they were quite important militarily and seem cool and distinct, a couple balkan states like Serbs and Croats, Wallachians/Romanians for the Dracula campaign, maybe Venetians, and definitely Georgians and Armenians! Plus rename Slavs → Rus.

But I’d want to see loads more in other parts of the world before more Europe. And honestly Venetians isn’t that important to me. Maybe if there were already like 65 civs.

Also, I don’t think Burgundians needs to be designed in the way it is to cover Flanders/Frisians. Franks/Teutons already cover them well enough.

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funny because I’ve talked to plenty of German people who do see them as representing the Germans and not the Teutonic order. let me ask you this - if they represent the Teutonic order, why is the symbol not the Teutonic cross?

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I did not consider Georgians and Armenians as European in my previous post, but I would welcome them, although they are not that high on my priority list which is:

  1. Africa
  2. East Asia
  3. America
  4. Caucasus
  5. Africa
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I mean to say, i think it represents HRE but the civilization name does not. I think the name should be changed, thats all.

You are right it’s not europea, rather central asian just like Cumans.

because they wanted it to be more then just the HRE, yes, it represents the HRE, but it represents more then just that.

8 powerful candidates in the Asia.
Central Asia: Göktürks/Uyghurs, Sogdians (East Iranians).
Outside the Great Wall: Khitans (Liao & Qara Khitai), Jurchens (Jin & Qing).
Tibeto-Burman Languages: Tibetans/Tanguts (Xi Xia), Lolos/Yi/Nuosu (Nanzhao & Dali Kingdom).
Indochina: Siamese, Chams.

Excuse me, you said Europeans? I haven’t mentioned Africans yet.

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Yeah’d I agree with this order of preference. Was wondering what civs specifically you would want in those DLCs? Would you include Tais in East Asia?

  1. Somalis, Nubians and Swahili
  2. Jurchens, Tibetans, either Tais or Khitans, but eventually I would add both of them
  3. Tarascans and Chimus (3rd: Muiscas)
  4. Georgians and Armenians (3rd: Khazars)
  5. Zimbabweans and Kongolese (3rd: Benin, they there lived pretty close to Kongo so they fit the DLC)
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In fact, Teuton is the alternative name of Deutsch or german in medieval, because the word Teuton and the word deutsch are cognate, the funeral of Barbarossa just called mos teutonicus,meaning"germans custom",the teutons represents all medieval German factions

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Okay, I support this list.
Would maybe add a dedicated South-East Asian expansion with Tais and Chams.

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There really is a hell of a lot that could be added to Africa isn’t there?
Haven’t even covered Kanem, Songhai, Ghanaians, Hausa or Yoruba

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