Civilizations and further splits

OK. But it’s still not clear. What do you mean by a sophisticated government, a kingdom? And by mini-city, do you mean low population? Maybe it would be easier if you specified which places you have in mind. Do you think any of the civs that were suggested in my other post (Kanembu, Benin, Kongo, Shona, Somalis etc) fit what you say? I don’t think so, and none of them were nomads either.

But why do these things count? Is there something inherent in them that makes a society more advanced or non-tribal? Malians did not use stones in their constructions, but mudbricks; does that make them tribal? Do all the civs in the game fit these requirements? As far as I know the vast majority of peoples built with wood, bricks and straw. Stone was restricted to specific buildings, as well as not being common to all areas.

Ironically, the suggested civs also fulfill these “requirements”: I know at least four of them had permanent capitals surrounded by rivers (the massive baked-brick walls of Ngazargamu in Kanem, and the extensive earth walls of Benin City) or on top of hills (stone walls for Mbanza Kongo and the Great Zimbabwe for Shona). The others I don’t know well enough, but, as I said, why would these factors exclude them?

Please read what I suggested first and then come back here. You yourself acknowledged that your research focuses more on the Sahara/Sahel area, so it makes no sense to talk about areas you don’t know about. Your statements are very vague and therefore worthless

But just to clarify: Kanem, Kongo, Benin and others had been praised for their sophistication by Arab and European visitors several times since their “discovery” until just before colonialism (when racism started to show up). Political, social and military organization, wealth, religious devotion, architecture, arts, economy and many other areas (all this you can see in the links I posted)

So again, read first. I think it’s just another case of ignorance.
(Of course, no one is to blame for not having heard of these things, but that’s exactly where I think the game can help. As a form of broad and popular media, it can generate interest for more discoveries)

The number of urbanized cities in Central and Southern Africa was indeed smaller compared to other places (due to ecological and other factors), but the few urbanized places that did exist were large in compensation. I don’t think this is relevant for adding a civ, but here is a thread that talks about the population of various African cities (including those of the suggested civs; it also has the dimensions of some of the walls of these cities).

But would this be a requirement? If yes, why?

You need to define the Middle Ages first. Do you mean the combo Feudalism + Christianity/Islam + militarized kingdoms? Or does it refer to the period ~400 (Huns) to ~1600 (Aztecs)?

All suggested civs have these things, except maybe the University in some of them (as far as I know). But the way the University is portrayed in the game, that’s no problem

I’m happy to help :slight_smile:

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Well the County of Siciliy was actually found by the Normans, so this is actually a viking civilization. Hence the Sergeants.

Sorry haha! i’m glad i could be of help

Wait what is the second beer? sorry i’m an ignorant peasant from Utrecht lol. I always tell everyone to try Hertog Jan to raise their standards :slight_smile:

Which means that in a near future Barbarossa, Joan of Arc and William Wallace should be moved to the West. Germans are Normans and so are the French.

Germans are Normans? excuse me?
Normans… nordic (it literally means Men of the North). They are from Norway and probably Denmark.
Germans are from the main continent and not Scandinavia. I know they are our brothers. But there is a difference you know :sweat_smile:
Actually the HRE were also raided by the Normans just like Great Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Nova Scotia, Russia, The Baltic lands, Byzantium.
The Normans is more a french term for the Vikings that settled in French Normandy and later settled in England and Siciliy and probably Morocco or Tunis. It’s a western branche of late vikings.

Pardon, I was thinking of Anglo-Saxons. Either way, they all belong to the West.

Primus (“the first”, from the Latin version of his name/title). It’s Belgian, but it’s “just” a pils, and it Isn’t really sold on our side of the border.

Hertog Jan is better anyway. :wink: Fun fact: Hertog Jan is actually brewed in Limburg, so his conquest of that place seems to have had a long lasting effect. (Counter-fact: the borders were very different back then. The location of the brewery actually seems to have been part of Guelders.)

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Aren’t those the Moors? :thinking:

There is an upcoming DLC coming out in 2023 with 3 new civs and campaigns for the Andeans: “Age of Empires II - Definitive Edition - Warchiefs of the Andes” . DLC concept v2 - Age of Empires II: DE / II - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum

So, they won’t be so “underrepresented”.

That was some guys dlc idea not an official announcement.

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Maybe someday they’ll add a Romanian civ. They changed who you play as in Prithviraj after all.

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That’s a fan concept, not a real DLC

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Fan concepts have a potential of becoming DLC, imho.

Maybe they will also move Prithviraj campaign into S. Asia? Will be glad to see that changed too.

That’s cool and all but you tried to demean someone’s comment by lying about a fan’s idea being official future DLC.

Africa needs Swahili, Kanembu, Somalis, Nubians, Songhai, Kongolese and Shonas at least.

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Maybe they do but that doesnt mean its confirmed as happening, which is whst people are saying.

You are taking a fan concept and pretending its actual legit information and passing it off as fact when no one really knows

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Some things I’m not so optimistic about.

The records of the Swahili and Shonas are lacking as compared to the Kongolese who are also Bantu.
I think it’s possible that the devs will first introduce Kongolese only and try to cover the whole Bantu culture with them, like giving them decent navy and trade. The Somalis, who are also on the coast of East Africa, also feature in the navy and trade, and are therefore likely to be used to cover the Swahili too. These two approaches are very likely to be quite effective.

The location and historical context of the Songhai Empire succeeded from the Mali Empire, Just as the Mali Empire succeeded the Ghana Empire. The three of them most likely are directly represented by the Malians.

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Amazigh* is the proper name for the natives