Civs that need balance changes and some ideas for those changes

I thought it woukd be cool to make a civ tier list based on needed changes similarly to what Ornlu did:

Need a nerf: Mayans, Chinese, Italians (water), Portuguese (water), Vikings,

Nerf on some match ups: Burgundians
May need a nerf: Cumans, Bohemians (closed), Turks (closed), Burgundians (closed), Britons, Franks (Franks and Britons prob need a nerf because of TG tho and also Arena and EW respectively), Lithuanians (hybrid and maybe arena), Huns? (hybrid), Malay (closed), Byzantines (water and maybe closed), Teutons (closed), Aztecs (closed)

Strong: Ethiopians, Tatars, Huns, Turks, Celts, Berbers, Italians (closed/TG), Aztecs (S-tier on EW), Bulgarians, Khmer,

Pretty much balanced: Japanese, Mongols, Poles (they have a weakness but I dont tthink that is as noticeable as the other weak civs and they are solid to strong against melee civs), Saracens, Byzantines, Malians, Magyars (new arabia and TG), Bohemians

May need an small buff: Magyars (old arabia and closed), Italians, Malay, Incas (these last three are so weird, not sure where do they fit but I would just pick all the solid civs over these except for maaaaybe Malay who I just didnt know where to put)

Need an small buff: Portuguese, Persians, Slavs (yeah I would pick Italians, Incas, Magyars and Malay over Slavs)

Need a buff for certsin match ups: Vietnamese, Koreans (these two are solid against archers civs but suck against cav), Sicilians (not sure about this one), Indians (also not sure about this one)

Need a buff: Burmese, Spanish (I know those two have some okay-ish match ,ups but even those match ups are few and still rough)

Reworked to be more balanced: Goths (I know they are weak, but I see it very hard to keep the late game intact while making the early game stronger so it has to be both a buff and a nerf)

So, lets begin with what I think would be cool to change now:


The problem with Spain is that they have no good answer to archer civs (since their only “viable” strat is conqs) and even against knight civs they arent that great.

  • Gain free Elite Skirm (this may still not be enough, but it still helps against their weakest match ups since Conqs at least can do some work against knights)
  • Maybe an early game monk buff? (if you give them free elite skirmisher, beetwen Conqs and good mid game monks the civ will have answers against both cav and archers, but it may still not be enough). Was thinking that maybe giving them faster conversions early game and either replscing or nerfing Inquisition or just free monastery techs (you could make the cannon galleon thing a UT for example)
  • Dark age TCs no longer built faster (we have to keep stuff consistent)


No good idea for them. To put it lightly burmese design seems extremely hard to make it work while keeping the identity of the civ (bad archery range units) intact. They need either a new bonus or the second archer armour badly since the current bonuses cant be buffed in any substancial way to fix this. +1 pierce armour on knights (for free, locked behind a castle isnt a good idea imo) would be enough, sure, but it wouldnt fit the civ and would overlap with Sicilians. However I can see this being thd buff they get, with maybe givibgvthem +1/1 armour for knights and eles as the UT and removing Hauberk, which while boring I guess its necessary and works fine but I wont just reqork Sicilians to fix those guys.


I expect Goths to stay the same honestly. Too popular and iconic even though bad because of how slow they are even though the early ridiculous. Either way I would make these changes:

  • Goths get longer lasting hunt/hunters dont need to drop off (not sure that last one is balanced) but lose their current hunting and loom bonus

Also, the late game has to be nerfed now. With an strong eco it gets out of control way too fast. Not sure how, but theres a lot of options.


  • Eagle Scouts/EW/EEW cost +5 food (maybe the next change is good enough tho)
  • Eagle scouts no longer get better stats once you reach feudal. If those two nerfs arent enough nerf their attack vs cav or their base attack and if those changes hit Eagle scouts too hard decrease the training tkme (maybe once they reach castle age) and/or increase their attack or attack vs cav on feudal.
  • Battle Elephants take less damage from spears?
  • Starting gold reduced onTG to increase unit diversity? (Would also consider making Caravan weaker but I dont think that would be tgat necesary)
  • Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart adjusted somehow to make it more affordable OR


  • Town Center techs cost less and research in less time instead of free techs
  • Viking Longboats trained slower or are a bit weaker in castle age


  • Lose free farming techs
  • Berries are collected 30% faster


  • Archer discount decreased (prob 10/15/20) if thats not enough…
  • Lose the extra villager maybe? Or resources laat a bit less


  • Non-elite CKN reduced attack and cost +5 or +10 gold or just reduce the cost of Rocketry but no longer affect CKN and CKN stats adjusted
  • Start with +2 villagers, but starting res adjusted or discount decreased somehow (maybe both).


We all know whats wrong with Italians, they are one of the two most dominating water civs. I wish we could just remove one of the water bonuses and buff everything else but I know thats not easy so lets go with something simpler

  • Cheaper age ups increased to 20%
  • Fishing ships cost less wood over the ages but less on dark age
  • Cheaper university and dock discount decreased to 25% or 30%


An extremely messy civ that will be hard to made balanced but Feitoria has to change first.

  • Feitoria increases villager production by 20% (aka villagers work 20% faster and resources last 20% longer) and uses 10% of the population limit. Prob made cheaper.
  • Fire ships no longer benefit from the extra hp bonus (maybe the bonus only affects galleys and cannon galleons), gold discount only affects land units and/or ship hp decreased in feudal but research times of age ups reduced.

Jjst to be clear, I am not sure this will work.


  • Flemish militia reworked heavily (I dobt think a FR rework is possible but I may be wrong). Now a bit stronger againdt archers (either higher hp or higher pier ce armour), cheaper but countered by swordmen because of reduced damage output (has to be countered by non-FU two handed swordmen). Still has to be countered by siege, HC and not be great against archers.

This way the tech can stay the same while being easier to counter for cav civs and less terrible against archer civs. Either way I understand if you want to do something else. Also reduce the effect of the TB, nerf their monks and/or the tech discount of the eco and/or stables (I would nerf their eco first tbh) if necessary


Tbh 5% faster darl age TCsbwould probably be fine without the extra starting res and/or the faster docks but I dont think people would wsnt that.

  • Dont recieve extra res until first TC is built
  • Town centers and docks work 15/20/25% at feudal castle/imperial age. If too strong docks no longer affected. We could also increase the stsrting res to 75/75 instead of changing the faster working buildings but I guess Persians are good enough on nomad lol


Just nerf their fire ships

  • Fire ships fire 20% faster


The civ is solid against archer civs thanks to great skirms but their match ups against cav arent that great. Would consider buff their spears somehow, but not that sure how


Same situation as Vietnamese honestly. Their anti cav options just need some help.


They need to be less focused on dealing with archer civs. Rn they have the bonus damage reduction, Hauberk and Serjeants who are mostly helping against arbs, skirms and halbs but not so much against knights. No idea hiw to change them


Britons seem to dominate as a flabk TG civ way too hard.

  • Town center discount reduced
  • No longer het extra range on imp for free (Longbowsmaybe get the extra range anyway?)


Lode either the stronger pikemen or free stone techs. I feel like they are both overdesigned and too strong on Arena, and Viper seems to think they need a minor nerf as well.

May update this later. Either way thanks for resding so far lol.

I don’t understand this fixation with nerfing so many civs simply for such a niche as hybrid maps? You’re killing Lith on arabi just so that they aren’t s tier (not OP) on hybrids? There’s a number of equally strong civs on hybrids, why nerf all of them when there’s a variety to choose from?

I can understand the water nerfs because it’s basically only 3 civs. But then water maps are even more niche.

And then at the end you say Franks are fine? Like do you have a serious disconnect from the ladder? Do you just watch pro games or something?

You basically just list civ bonuses and say one of them must change. I think anyone can make that same post.

China needs a smoother start for the majority of players. It’s too strong in high tier and too hard to play for the vast majority of players. Reduce starting Vils to 2. But give them 50 more food.

Leave cuman discount on ranges and stables only but just reduce its effect by 25.

Now there’s actually something someone can agree or disagree on instead of some vague feeling of something needing to change.


This is top level based balance mostly, so yeah Im ignoring the Frank players.

And Im not the only one asking for a Lith change but tbh its not that bad howvit is rn. Either way the majority of the nerfs arent based on one map.

Also 30% cheaper feudal is practically the same on Arabiavoutside of making the civ less noob-friendly and killingvthe 3-minute rush

Ok, point out those civs I mentioned that dont need some changes outaide of Liths.

Whats the diference beetwen doing all military buildings cheaper? It helps to use the rams and fits better Cuman tech tree than cheaper archery ranges

Also, I proposed a Frank nerf either way

Updated it. I just struggle too much agsonst Liths on 4 lakes amd people seem to agree on that but I guess it msy just be that i suck on water