The Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic state, but Islam was the dominant religion. Because of this, in the game, boar cannot be collected. However, this feature could be unlocked through an upgrade. For example, gaining 5 villagers who can collect boar in exchange for a “vizier point” would be a nice touch, reflecting the presence of people from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds within the empire.
Moved to AoE 4 as it is more appropriate there
No.
Historically, they didn’t eat boats, so they shouldn’t gather boar with villagers.
On the other hand, you’re assuming that the Vizier, the representative of Islam, would allow the consumption of boar by a decree, which would be haram (forbidden) and heretical.
Just to remember old times, when the Ottomans came into the game, this attempt to be inclusive and turn the Ottomans into a hybrid of "Christian European and Muslim Middle Eastern" was a terrible mistake, one that even the devs themselves had to regret:
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Because of this, they decided to name their heavy cavalry “Knight,” irritating most Turkish players and causing them to change the name to “Lancer” the following season.
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But for this problem, they never consider at fist place to let the Ottoman have a unique heavy cavalry unit, as the Kapikullu or the Sipahi, instead they make the light cavalry has the name of Sipahi, when they represent more the Deli instead of a proper Sipahi in their imperial age skin.
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Another reason why they have ships like the Hulk and the Dhow combined. Fortunately, the Ottomans did transition to using galleons, the evolution of the carrack, so it would be somewhat justified to have them instead of the Xebec. If this had not been the case, the criticism would be immense.
On the other hand, most of the peoples conquered by Muslims were “Other Muslims,” such as the Mamluk Sultanate, the Sultanate of Ifriqiya, the Sultanate of Algeria, etc. And the non-Muslim peoples (Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks) had to pay extra taxes and sell their children to Islam. In fact, the Devshirme System (Military Schools in the game) converted recruited children from Christian villages into Muslims and took them to fight in the army.
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Honestly, that is such a weak reason to wreck a civs access to potentially the fasted land food source in the early game.
Of all thing, the devs chose to hyper fixate on something is trivial as pork. Never mind the fact that muslims often ignore the halal/haram labels at will and the fact that there are built in concessions for it.
How the devs chose this eyewash while giving imam/relic interactions the greenlight is a real headscratcher - the rules over using idols are much stricter than the food relegated ones.
You’re really overestimating the value of pork consumption (or lack thereof) to muslims. With all the other things, it would just be one more thing and would help settle alot of the game balance issues.
On the subject of relics in Muslim culture:
As far as I understand, in the beginning, there was great iconoclasm in the Muslim religion, so it was not even possible to decorate buildings or draw war scenes in books.
However, regarding relics, there was a certain veneration or respect, but different from the Christian world.
The first Muslim relics were body parts of the disciples and relatives of the Prophet Muhammad. Many were actually buried in the minarets of various mosques. Another different type of relic were the “fingerprints” of scholars and important figures in Islam, which, since the Middle Ages, were realized to be different from person to person.
Around the 12th century, the Sufi movement and the mystical dervishes appeared. Many of these spiritual masters were highly regarded by the people, and when they died, some had large mausoleums dedicated to them, and their bodies were buried in special chapels that vary in name depending on the kingdom: Maqam, Zawiya, Qubba.
The relic mechanic is something that gives quasi-fantasy vibes to the series. Much like the rest of the religion mechanics, healing and wololo for example, they are a magical feature of the game.
Literal miracles. I think looking into historicity may be a slight error, they are meant to be unrealistic.
Healing is practically “medical healing”, only simplified, just like building construction or resource processing in the game. Like bricks and gold coins are supposedly processed in Town Centers* and campments, and money used as currency when you pay technologies or bricks and carpets used when you make buildings.
The fact that healing is performed by monks, reflects the fact that medieval doctor-barbers trained in monasteries, if not are monks themselves, just as the bothanist. Let’s say, more minimalism. In the case of Islam, healers also had to profess Islam, and many of them could be imans, since it was the one who performed the collective prayer in a mosque. Mongols shamans also had the role of healers. With Chinese and Japanese, many buddhist monks works also as healers, and shinto priest make healing rituals or could be healers themselves.
Regarding the Relic gold generation, it’s the money left by the faithful to visit monasteries or mosques on their pilgrimage, and many pilgrims were wealthy enough to afford journeys of several kilometers in the Middle Ages. Tithe Barn is self-explanatory.
And about the conversion, it is practically a minimalism of the religious conversion. I suppose they use them with relics of saints, dervishes, buddhist monks, etc. tho justify two things:
- That is effect is better and bigger and in area that everyone can see; not like aoe2 where you didn´t know wich unit is converted.
- A more balanced" effect with Cowldown and limit of use (relics in your disposition), since I suppose the individual conversion mechanics of Age2 were seen as too “broken” or too dependent on the “Micro”, in a game where the “Macro” works more, to normally include it in the game. Just look the Abbasid tech that imitates the AoE2 mechanic, near nobody uses them because in Imperial Age using Micro in Battle with individual units is near impossible or not profitable.
In any case, this thread is about the Ottomans and their assessment of whether they should be able to consume boar. I only mentioned relics because in the previous post, somebody mentioned that the Ottomans didn’t have relics, which is a misconception.
What I’m trying to get at isn’t specifically relics, healing, or wololo conversions (please remember that it converts one player’s units to another player’s control, NOT RELIGIONS), rather the concept of historicity and realness of religion when applied to a video game. There’s a lot to the social practices of a civ with Islamic roots, and pork being forbidden by law is definitely one of them. That’s a fairly basic concept that can be maintained without having to compromise the gameplay experience.
In terms of understanding whether or not it’s effective for a game I think having the option to harvest boar would be pretty important for Ottoman players. They suffer from a lack of food economy bonuses, only having their feudal landmark as an option for increased food generation. They rely on military schools (and Mehmed Imperial Armory) to provide resource value.
One of the harder things to figure out is how it could be implemented effectively.
If you give them the option in dark age or feudal age, the question is how. If it’s based off of research, does the cost outweigh the gains? If it is implemented later in the game, would the boar still exist to be harvested from anyways? Would the players already have done a farm transition? If we’re talking about whether or not it’s ahistorical, then there are many cases where consuming pork had exceptions (particularly during times of starvation).
All told, having the exception is more about giving the faction cultural depth. If the issue is a food economy that is lacking compared to other civs, then they should have other options to enhance their food economy that don’t involve harvesting boars. Yes, their population wasn’t entirely Islamic, but the state religion was Sunni Islam. For that reason alone the faction should have the rites and rituals of that specific religion.
Was and is. Weather or not the adherents follow it, the simple fact is the rule forbids it with no excuses. The linked article has no sources of its own and there’s nothing else like it any sourced literature I’ve seen so I’m gonna take that with a grain of salt.
Back to the matter at hand tho, keeping the relic mechanic (which is a total NO) and then fixating on pork (which can be circumstantial) is a strange hill take a stand on. Allowing muslim civs to take boar and drop the berry thing just makes many things easier.
It seems more like how authorities associated their ‘divine’ objects to justify their own power. “I have this thing that something all mighty gave so IM also important - thus do what I say”. Less about miracles, more about political optics playing with herd mentality.
Box with a part of Muhammad’s beard. Maulâna Rumi mausoleum
Islam forbade the interpretation of images in sacred places (Mezquites, Madrases), but it says nothing about their representation outside of them, especially for historical or artistic purposes. On the other hand, this prohibition is a belief of the Haadit, but not of the Quran, so it is debatable.
And relics do not fall into this category, since they are not “art,” but body parts or objects related to people important to a religion, “real objects,” not representations, which have been part of Islam since its beginnings, starting with the “Kaaba Stone.”
But I won’t bother talking about it. There are plenty of articles on this subject, and you can find them online. The links I posted above should be enough.
The whole reason against drawing, sculptures, fetishes, objects is because there was a linkage to idolatry with them as people WOULD eventually start worshiping them as objects of power. EVERYTHING you listed falls in this category.
To take a single instance - the Kaaba Stone isnt a relic while the True Cross is because the muslims don’t associate any intrinsic power to it while the Christians do.
I really dont know what sort of Islam you found on the webs, but there’s a reason ‘online’ is considered less than actually going over the literature at the islamic universities in Egypt, SA, UAE, etc. Case in point - the random youtube channel you linked. Thats less then even wikipedia.
Anyway, I hope you DO stop talking about it. The point was BOAR collecting for Islamic civs, not dragging it into politics of faith.
If anything, showing these examples of idolatry - if they were valid - would prove how little the islamic eyewash matters to potential muslim players.
Where have I heard that before? Oh, the same argument evangelicals use against Catholics and statues of saints. I think you’re making an improper parallel.
No, the way Muslims view religious symbols is not the same as certain iconoclastic branches of Protestantism.
Muslims, if we’re talking about the Middle Ages, believed that every religious symbol “outside” their religion should be destroyed, but not "within it."
That’s what differentiates them from the iconoclastic Byzantine heresy of the 8th century, which literally desired the destruction of every writing, drawing, or symbol of their own religion, whether inside or outside a temple, even in historical or educational books.
For this reason, the existence of sacred objects is permitted in Islam, as long as they do not invite idolatry, and Muslims have been very careful about this. The saints of Islam are remembered for their works and worship of Allah, and the message they have left. Their relics are proof that they walked this world, and were people like you and me.
The Black Stone of the Kaaba is considered a relic of Islam. According to Muslims, it was a stone that was in the first Sanctuary that Adam built, and he used it as a cornerstone for it. “Adam touched it,” it is sacred; they kiss it when they go on pilgrimage to Mecca.
It’s another matter if someone wants to discuss “how much” a Catholic Christian worships their relics (like the True Cross) with the Islamic view. Just because one expects more than another doesn’t mean something isn’t a relic. The definition of religion is that it has been touched, made, blessed, or part of a saint or other important person for a religion or belief.
Under that argument, you’re also a liar for going around writing “on an internet forum” like a random person, from whom nothing can be believed.
You’re also using the fallacy of authority, citing universities without even making the effort to cite which articles or exponents supposedly from those universities support you, in other words, “invisible people with invisible arguments.”
I watched the videos I posted and read the articles I posted before posting them, so I know they have valuable content. It’s another matter that you didn’t want to bother reading them and instead sought out the worst possible way to answer me, just because you don’t know how to debate.
You’re the one quoting me to talk about that. If it bothers you, don’t quote me. Every time you quote me, I get a message saying “This user quoted you.”
If Muslims haven’t been bothered by the relics since the game came out, there must be a reason. Perhaps because what I say is true, and they also had relics?
And the Boar thing is a different story. One thing doesn’t rule out the other.
Surat al-Baqara (2:173)
“He has forbidden you only dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and what has been slaughtered in the name of other than Allah…”
(Quran 2:173)
Surat al-Ma’ida (5:3)
“Forbidden to you are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and what has been slaughtered invoking any name other than Allah…”
(Quran 5:3)
It’s Haram.
I dont care about your (total lack of) understainding of near 2000 year old religion.
BOAR VALID. The game abstracting all that it does, but not this one detail is dumb. No more tangets.
With long train of posts diverting the thread into someone’s C-tier research project, I guess there should be a on comment the actual post:
Yea, totes. The boar thing for being muslim is way too minor a detail to shift the most critical part of the game around over. Simple fact is, bigger things like idol worship (relics) and muslims killing muslims are already there, and have happened in real life too.
Already in aoe2, so we know that no muslims actually care. Seems more like a very bizarre detail to focus, more awkward and appeasing.
Anyway, putting it in as a viz point would make it a pretty weak viz point - the benefit of boar is in getting it ASAP. I wouldnt really see it competing with the free sheep.
It might be better to just scrap the berry bonus thing that was a compensation for the lack of boar and just leave them with the same hunting interactions as other civs. Pork was poor mans meat back in the and thats very close to how it worked out for the islamic empires - the adherence to dietary laws would vary alot as you got further from large cities.
I’d say, give ottos, abba, and whichever else the abilty to take boar and normal berries. Delhi can keep the orchard mech since it actually does fit with their identity as having a large amount of vegetarians.
Not eating pork is significant to their cultural identity. There’s really nothing else to say about it.
If we’re talking about adjusting food for ottoman then there are dozens of things that doesn’t involve having them do something completely incompatible with their culture.
Being able to delete the boar from the map is arguably a feature of them not being able to consume it, so changing this would have a lot of unforeseen consequences.
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Actually you care, if not you wouldn’t quoted me, much less to insult me. But the one who insults ultimately loses and shows immaturity, which is what you’re doing.
You insult me, you yell at me in all caps, and then you try to pretend you didn’t say anything, how convenient for you.
C-tier project? This is what someone who doesn’t cite sources, insults, uses capital letters to shout, and even wants to change the topic to Boar (while propining more insults), just because he doesn’t know how to debate.
Seriously, I’ve never had anyone on the forum speak to me with such a level of childishness, contempt, and slander just because they don’t know how to counter arguments, although I suppose there’s a first time for everything.
And if it’s going to be like this, at least I’ll call moderation to close the thread.
You posted a mess with flimsy sources and thats what I called it. The rest of your fantasy is a) dead wrong, b) STILL a tangent to the topic.
Its gonna be like this. Impress me.
Insulting is not having an opinion, it is offending without arguments, and in fact it only shows how wrong you are, especially considering that until now you haven’t cited any text or fonts properly to defend your points. Even calling what I’m saying “fantasy” or “flimsy mess” in your recent post is just another form of insult.
You keep saying you want to talk about the main topic, but even then you’re unable to separate yourself from the relic topic just to justify your true interest:
According to you, the relics in islamics are wrong, and therefore that’s your justification for the game having errors, and therefore that’s justification for you to including a “non-historical” mechanic contrary to Islamic beliefs (eating pork), because for you “another mistake won’t hurt”.
So one historical error justifies making another?
In the long run, you don’t really care about the historicity of the relics, but you need the problem to exist to justify the previous point, and that’s why there’s so much hostility aggainst me, all this fuss to justify your true interests.
I’ve already expressed my opinion on wild boar hunting several times in various posts on this topic. Repeating it would be redundant, but I’ll say it again: Muslim eating pork it’s anti-historical and offensive.
Not true, there are complaints on the AoE2 forum about the Boar hunt by Saracens, or the consumption of cattle by Hindus. Complains that I share, i play that game too.
In fact, it is the reason that the Gunjara are so celebrated for avoiding the killing of cattle by garrisoning in Mills
Those who defend the permanence of this mechanic in AoE2:DE, do so because, 20 years after the game’s release, it’s a bit late to fix that aspect without affecting its gameplay, but it’s not impossible either.
On the other hand, it’s assumed that by moving to AoE IV in 2021, we should have better representation of civilizations than the limited representation that AoE2 of 1991 had due to the technical and financial limitations of that age, which was never fixed so as not to offend those accustomed to the original gameplay, specially in multiplayer.
Allowing the Boar for Islamists civs in AoE IV would be a step backward, not a step forward:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/wy3fry/most_inclusive_civ_2022/