Collection of issues of the current Militia Line implementation, conceptional ideas and evaluation

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
64

The best feature you can use the higher you Elo up is the speed of the unit. Making the Militia’s line faster would make them much more manoeuvrable, because I was talking about making them 0.96 (+ squires) like archers.

In this case we would have:

  • 0.96 Archer = Skirmisher = Militia
  • 1.00 Sperman

Of course the Celts’ bonus should be recalibrated, because it was already nerfed once.

Other highlights that it is a problem of pure unit speed; not so much of HP or attack.

Viper once suggested instead reducing the collision size slightly or giving it something like 0.3 range

65

As well as unit position. 1 row of 10 knights vs 2 rows of 10+10 LS, if LS are placed on opposite side and makes a sandwitch, they will win. But if the 2nd row of LS is behind the 1st row of LS, as far as my memory recalls, it is a draw.

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66

Moving down Long Swordsman and/or THS an age

In general this is the right direction if the line doesn’t receive a massive overhaul. The change alone won’t do that much. Armenians have it already - they can use it thanks to their very strong midgame eco. But even with armenians it’s fairly uncommon - as the initial investment is just too high currently. At least at higher elos.
At lower elos this seems to work almost a bit too well, again shown by the Armenians. And that’s not really surprising as there ressource efficiency isn’t the most important thing, especially not upgrade costs.
Without a good eco bonus this change alone is useless for high elo, but with a good eco bonus it can be too strong on low elo. So it definitely would need some tweaking afterwards.
So on it’s own it’s probably a C-Tier idea.
Paired with some other tweaks like reducing the upgrade costs but lowering their attack slightly it could potetnially bring it up to A-Tier. Though it would synergize better with the B-Tier (Situational) - as it tends to lead to an “anti-timing” strategical option for the line.

67

Reducing the Hitbox

This is a two-sided edge. It would help in mass battles. But atm the unit is so terrible in that we basically never see that. So it’s hard to assess the impact. I don’t believe it would actually help there though. Why?
Because there will almost always be some kind of Siege component to these battles. And Onagers and Scorpions do Area damgae. Reducing the hitboxes will lead to denser pacing and more units will be hit, leading to actually a practical disadvantage.
So it’s C Tier on it’s own.
Ofc when this is compensated with specific buffs to the line against Siege units this could work out better. But I rather would just give that “more durable against Siege” Bonus to the line anyways. Because if we want to get to A or S Tier it needs to be better against Siege anyways.
So it’s also more of a “B-Tier” change even with a compensational buff against Siege.

68

Increasing the Range

If it’s only limited to anti-building damage (throwing torches or whatever). It could be interesting.
But before inreasing Range in general to that line we should think about increasing the Range of other units like… the Spearman? It would be odd to give such a change to a unit that doesn’t use a pole weapon but NOT to the unit of the same class that actually DOES. So for that reason I don’t even give a Tier to that. It’s too odd.

69

Why, if you make the line better in large number against other melee units they should be good vs siege. If I play kts, how I supose to deal with massed infantry? Archers is an option, but i have to tech into and mass before give a proper response, and milita has no dedicated counter until imperial age. SIege should fill this role.

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70

Reducing Barracks cost

This kind of change like production time is more of a late adjustment. When we see the different lines playing against each other and we see one is just outproducing the other too easily and we want to adjust that.
Also this does affect other lines aswell like Spearmen and Eagles. So they would need to be adjusted aswell…
I would really prefer changes that don’t mess with the rest of the game here, so again no Tier given.

Funnily I could even see that we would need to go the opposite directio when the line is finally put in a healthier state. So probably then a longer production time than currently. But it’s music from the future.

71

Yeah it already does. That’s what I tried to explain.
At least if the Infantry is concentrated. Siege is the main Reason for me why the Goth Spam works only the way it does currently. If you would concentrate the Infantry they would just get flattened by Siege.

And that’s exactly when people claim the lower hitbox would help. But my impression is that it wouldn’t cause it would only make it even more vulerable to siege.

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72

Adding a trash counter to the Miltia Line

This can also mean changing one of the current trash units to counter them. As shown by the Warrior Priests this concept already works very well. Maybe a bit too good for the Warrior Priests themselves as they are so gold intensive. But they have their best timings when the current militia line is at it’s worst currently. So it would definitely be a conceptional approach to make the Line good at all ages.
Ofc this is a pure nerf to the line on it’s own. So maximum a C-Tier Change if at all.
But It’s also the only change I currently see that could allow to bring the line on the same level as the current “Power Units”. It’s a core game mechanic all Power Units have their respective trash unit counters (or in case of Eagles the semi-trash counter). Which is essential to bringt the power level of these units so high up they can count as a “Power Unit”. So it’s atm the only change that has S-Tier potential. Maybe there might be other ideas that can get there but for the moment it’s the only one that would theoretically allow for that.

Notably a reminder: S-Tier means it can become a Power Unit. If you want to make the line a Power Unit it needs a Trash Counter. But if you’re ok with A or B Tier (Solid option/situational) it doesn’t need that. The Tiers aren’t supposed to be a personal “how i like stuff” but rather an evaluation attempt of “how far up this can bring the line”.

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73

That would mean you have to redesigned and rebalance militia line and lot of unique units which stats are kind of related to militia line strength. Militia line would become stronger and obviously more expensive and maybe not available in dark age and new trash counter becomes game first military unit. I would imagined that militia will be the first part of this new trash line and Man at Arms will be new elite heavy infantry line.

Taking this all into consideration it’s highly unlikely that devs would ever choose that path.

74

I think there is a slight misunderstanding of the game mechanics. It is never, ever, a question of whether civilisation X can afford upgrade Y. It is always a question of whether that specific upgrade or technology is objectively the best investment of your resources at that particular time. It is like in chess, where at every turn you have to objectively find the best possible move.

The reason why the Burgundians often go to Cavaliers is because the economic investment is small and so is the risk factor of having made the wrong choice. Following the logic the more it costs the more it has to pay back.

That is why I still believe that the bonus of the Armenians and Dravidians, for example, should be reunited along the lines of the Burgundians.

Because objectively speaking it is hardly the best investment of your resources.

From a statistics point of view, we are already in the situation where 2 LS win against 1 KTS if they manage to engage well. The problem is that this is difficult to do because they get stuck a lot. Even killing the vills if you open MAA is more strenuous than it should be.

If I may give an example, the direction to be taken by the infantry is the one traced by the Karambit Warriors not the one traced by the Teutonic Knights.

75

Ofc it can be too expensive to afford certain techs. Look at stuff like Heresy. Sometimes it’s the best thing you can get but you just can’t click it.
Most of the time it’s ofc an evalueationif it’s worth getting a tech.
But idk why you say there would be any misconception. The way it was formulated it clearly refers to the too high initial investment. It doesn’t refer to being affordable or not (which in most cases will actually be depending on the respective game situations). It just says the upgrades are too expenisve at that time they are available.

Ofc this would work well together. And I think it would be a natural move.
It’s more a question how much and what compensatory nerfs get with it. Because this can change the timings when the line is it’s strongest massively.
If the costs for the techs go down like 20-25 % we could get a line that is strong in the later stages of each age. If we reduce the upgrade cost and time by 50 % + we could even get a line that could use the timings of each age. Whilst the first would only require a minor change like -1 Atk from LS onwards the 2nd would require more massive changes like removing Supplies or so.

I get why people are proposing this change. I just tried to explain why it wouldn’t be so good as they think. Ofc the units would perform a bit better in melee. But once Siege is involved this would become an huge disadvantae. And the line is already bad in these situations.
I tried to make these posts not too long and go into everything. I usually leave out the very obvious stuff intentionally to make them shorter. So that’s why there isn’t talked about the better melee fighting ability. Ofc it’s there, but the downside of being more vulnerable to Siege is actually more than compensating the little you get in melee fighting. BTW if you want the units better melee fighters you can just try increase the DPS or HP. This wouldn’t have a negative downside.

Karambits are entirely different as they are fast swarmlings. And btw currently on the edge of being broken. The only thing that holds them back is their miniscule HP which actually makes them worse in melee.
I don’t think it’s a good path for a generally available infantry line. Like with Goths the fact that only 1 civ has access to it and needs a castle makes it feel refreshing to see - even if it’s not a healthy design.
If all civs would get something like a Karambit from Barracks it would be an absolute nightmare. There would be almost no variety in eco investment as you have to make sure never get outmassed by the Karambits (as there is no counter unit). And there would be stone walls every game because you somehow have to keep them out of your eco Pretty sure 90% + of players would despise that gameplay.
And the asburd thing for that is that the Karambits don’t even need to be competitive with the power lines to achieve that. The sheer fact that they are there and there is the threat of one party outmassing the other would lead to that meta.
Which brings us back to the comparison with Knights. I haven’t seen how the units fare against each other. But I’m still pretty sure the current Militia line is better against Knights than Karambits. Nevertheless Karambits are considered the higher threat and - if the malay player has a castle - usually chosen way above the militia line to use. And for the Karmabit itself it often isn’t even important what collision size they have (I think it’s actually not 50%, probably more like 75% or so, but I haven’t checked it) because they are usually not even used in mass battles. They swarm, and when they are so spread out the collision size isn’t that important. That’s why I never looked into if they actually have a smaller collision size, because it didn’t really matter.

I think a smaller collisoin size would synergize way better with units with high HP (and Speed). As they wouldn’t be too much impacted by area attacks. Stuff like Rathas. Also Knights ofc. But a lot of these units don’t make a lot of sense to reduce the collision size as they are so expensive. Units with low HP don’r benefit from that really. There are better stats to improve their melee fighting capabilities.

76

Reducing upgrade cost (+time)

We live in an Age of Timings. So obviously this is one of the huge disadvantages of the line in the midgame. It’s just too expensive to upgrade to a “usable level”. Archers basically only need the Attack upgrades (+ xbow) and don’t cost food. Knights are often usable without any upgrades on them.
But for the Militia line - only to get them to a “usable” state you need the Armor, Supplies and Unit upgrades. Often even more like attack and speed.
If this stuff was cheaper we could see way more of them in the midgame where it’s current weakest phase is.
It would probably again require a small compensatory nerf in the Imperial Age.
I’m not too sure how much this would influence low elo. But I guess it would have a way bigger impact on higher elos as there res efficiency is so crucial in these timings. Nevertheless it will also buff the line on lower elos where it isn’t even bad currently. And probably needs some changes because of that.
On it’s own because of that Risk it is probably just B-Tier. But with some other changes and tweaks (like moving down the upgrades but removing Supplies) it can bring the line up to A-Tier quite comfortably.

77

increase DPS

One common basic buff ideas. Realtity the line is already one of the highest DPS/investment in the game. Not far behind the Knight line but with way lower cost.
Generally highe damage output tends to work against a unit being considered good at all stages of the game. They have to fall off somewhere. Otherwise they become oppressive. As shown very nice with the current Monaspa Design. If a high DPS unit is strong over a too long period of time they just snowball too hard.
Nevertheless this can ofc be an option if that’s the goal. Make the line strong at one or two specific timings.That would be situational. However to achieve this with the current design of the line it would require some compensations at the other timings.
So it has a B-Tier potential together with other changes. But is hard to assess in it’s current stage. It would probably just break the line on the already strong timings. Ofc if it’s destinctively done at the “bad timings” it could have a small positive impact. At least if it doesn’t result in making it too strong in low elo.

78

increase melee armor

Would effectuvely lean more towards the “trash counter” role of the line. Which could cause issues in the trashwars. But on the other hand could make it see more use in the other stages of the game.
The impact wouldn’t be massive, as there are so many other weaknesses of the line that are untouched. But maybe it can at least open some situational play.
On it’s own probably B-Tier. With some other tweaks that cover up some of the weaknesses of the line it could potentially reach A-Tier.

79

increase pierce armor

Gambesons greets. Didn’t seem to do too much in general. But there are notably now some Archer civs like Britons who seem to have issues with good Infantry civs.
Pierce Armor is a really tough stat to change cause one of it can “make or break” a unit entirely.
Especially since Gambesons came out I learned that the OG 1 PA was actually ideal for the Balance between Archer, CA and Hand Cannons in the ability to counter the line.
2 PA already makes it quite hard for Archers to counter them - meaning with a lower Archer amount it’s really, really tough. Whilst Hand Cannons still work very well.
Ofc extra Pierce Armor would help the unit massively in the midgame. But then the question emerges what then will be the counter unit? Very easy to see the potential to break the game there.
So on it’s own it’s probably more a D than a C Tier. With massive compensatory tweaks it ofc can bring it up to A-Tier. But it would be quite some work to get there.

80

reduce training time

This could allow for some “surprise switches” to happen with the line. Currently the situations (pure trash and/or low military investment from the opponent) are quite rare you would go for this. But it would at least allow this kind of situational play.
So B-Tier on it’s own. But similar to a reduction of the Barracks cost it can also make the unit too spammable and overwhealming to deal with when you don’t already have the righ counters out.
It also doesn’t has a lot of synergy potential with other tweaks that would make the unit more powerful exactly because of that issue or potentially just overwhealming the opponent. So even with other changes it would probably just stay in the situational B-Tier.

81

shift cost more towards gold

The currently quite high food cost is holding back the line in the midgame, where food is often times at least 50% more valueable than Gold. At the same time it would make the line less potentially oppressive in Trash Wars.
So it’s probably more B-Tier on it’s own as the impact wouldn’t be massive. But with some other changes it can easily get the line to A-Tier, potentially without the need of compensational nerfs. Though this ofc needs to be figured out.

82

2nd attempt -

General

Barracks cost reduced 175 wood → 160 wood.
Barracks construction time 50 seconds → 40 seconds.
Supplies and Gambeson are removed.
New technology (Or old technology) “Tracking” is introduced. Tracking effect “Militia line +10% speed.” Available in Feudal Age. Cost 25 food, 25 gold. Time 30 seconds.
Bengalis, Berbers, Bohemians, Burgundians, Chinese, Cumans, Ethiopians, Franks, Georgians, Gurjaras, Hindustanis, Huns, Italians, Khmer, Lithuanians, Magyars, Malay, Malians, Mongols, Poles, Tatars, Turks, Vikings don’t get this tech.
Arson effect “Infantry +2 attack bonus vs buildings” → “Infantry +1 attack”. Arson is removed from **Armenians, Bengalis, Berbers, Burgundians, Burmese, Celts, Chinese, Cumans, Goths, Huns, Incas, Italians, Japanese, Khmer, Magyars, Malay, Mongols, Poles, Romans, Saracens, Tatars".
Pikeman attack bonus vs Elephant reduced 26 → 18
Eagle Warrior attack reduced 7 → 6.
Elite Eagle Warrior attack reduced 9 → 8.
Halberdier attack reduced 6 → 5.

Militia

MA increased 0 → 1. (Drush has become too weak nowadays as people are very good at quick wall and saving villagers. Also people won’t be able to make 1 spearman against 2 Drush and defend the villagers with their help as Hera said).

Man At Arms

Research time reduced 45 seconds → 40 seconds.
HP increased 45 → 50.
MA increased 0 → 1.
(This is the hardest part as this unit is the most balanced in the entire line. I want them to beat Bloodline Scout).

Longswordsman

PA increased 1 → 2

Two Handed Swordsman

HP increased 60 → 70
PA increased 1 → 2
Attack reduced 12 → 11
Upgrade time reduced 60 → 50 seconds

Champion

HP increased 70 → 80
Attack bonus vs Standard Building increased 4 → 5
PA increased 1 → 2
Upgrade time reduced 85 → 75 seconds

Civilization Specific Changes

Aztecs
Jaguar Warrior cost 60f/30g → 70f/15g.
Jaguar Warrior MA increased 1 (2) → 3.

Berbers, Chinese, Cumans, Dravidians, Lithuanians, Magyars, Mongols, Poles
Champion is removed from tech tree.

Bulgarians
Bagains effect reduced “Militia line +5 MA” → “Militia line +4 MA”.

Celts
Champion is replaced by Gallowglass.
Champion → Gallowglass
HP : 80 → 75
Attack : 13 → 12
Armor : 2/2 → 3/3
Upgrade cost and time : 750f/350g, 85 seconds → 600f/300g, 75 seconds

Goths
Infantries are 20%/25%/30%/35% cheaper in the Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Infantries are 25% cheaper starting from the Feudal Age.
“Infantries +1 attack bonus vs Standard Building per age” bonus removed.

Hindustanis

(Elite) Ghulam attack reduced 9 (11) → 8 (10).

Japanese
(Elite) Samurai now takes 3 (5) less damage from UU.
Elite Samurai HP increased 80 → 90.

Malians
Barracks units +1 PA per age → Barracks units +1/+2 PA in the Castle/Imperial Age.
(This will make their MAA generic. But Malians have plenty of options anyway. So it won’t be an issue).
(Elite) Gbeto attack reduced 10 (13) → 9 (12).

Sicilians
Serjeant HP reduced 75 → 65.

Romans
Infantry armor 2x effect → Militia line +1/+1 armor starting from Feudal Age.
Bloodlines is removed from Tech Tree.
Plate Mail armor is added to tech tree.
(Elite) Centurion HP increased 110 (155) → 125 (175)
Knight line doesn’t benefit from Comitatenses UT.
(I don’t like them being yet another Cavalry civ with faster farmer and good siege.)

Teutons
Elite Teutonic Knight PA increased 2 → 3.

Vietnamese
Gambeson is added to tech tree.

Vikings
Elite Berserk HP increased 62 (74 due to civ bonus) → 67 (80 due to civ bonus)

If I miss some civ that would be unbalanced, please let me know.

83

I think you need a bit more buffs from LS onwards to compensate the lack of supplies. Don’t forget it’s the time where the line falls really off. Even Goths don’t go for it. On the other Side FU Champ shouldn’t be better than currently.
Also 75 res for a 10 % speed increase might be a bit much at that stage, probably more like 50 res or even less. Just a small speed increase won’t do much there anyways - it’s miniscule in comparison to bloodlines or the archers starting to two-shot your MAA.

IDK if it’s intentional the line falls of late feudal, but if it is to “reactivate” it in Castle age you need to either get more for your buck or reduce the tech cost imo.