Collection of issues of the current Militia Line implementation, conceptional ideas and evaluation

Disclaimer

This will become a very long topic. I decided to not write everything in the opening post. It would be way, way too much. So I will first try to go through the issues with the current implementation and then try to catch different whole concepts in individual following posts.

First and foremost I will make a possibly “controversial” ##### ### it is actually the result of the combination of different issues I will lay out later:
The current Implementation of the Militia line doesn’t allow it to become a “Power Unit”. A unit you can make from the beginnin to the end, add specific counters or composition partners to, a unit you decide for from the beginning to build your whole strategy around. At least not on higher levels of play.
There are some civs with amazing bonusses which can very effectively utilize the unit in their gameplan, but it’s usually only used at specific timings where the opponents aren’t set up to effectively counter it. That’s what I would call a “tactical utilization”.

Issue No 1:
It’s too costly to upgrade to a “usable” state. Both in cost but also in upgrade time. The other power units are just faster (with the exception of drush/maa, just because it’s the only military unit you can make at this stage).

Issue No 2:
It doesn’t has any feature to leverage in a direct confrontation with the (other) Power units. It’s slow and has no Range, but also no other stuff like charges or whatever.

Issue No 3:
It’s harder and less revarding to keep alive individual units. The Health pool is comparably low for a melee unit, it’s slow so you have to be really clutch to keep them alive. But the scaling in numbers is also less, also less than Cavalry as Cavalry is more pop efficient - and needs to be actively microed against in all situation with ranged units. Whilst against the low health of Infantry at some point “stop micro” is actually way more effective because of the reduced “overkill”. What I refer to, is that with especially the Knight line there is a mass threshold on which it becomes incresingly difficult to micro against with archers, as you would need so many archers that you would produce a lot of overkill. But you also can’t “stop micro” because the cavalry numbers wouldn’t go down fast enough. With the militia line the one-shot threshold is so low, that with a big enough mass (50-60) you can utilize stop micros higher dps as the Champion numbers will go down more than enough to compensate for the disadvantage of not microing.
They also have less Gold cost than the “Power Units”, so they are easier to replace in the long run.
Lastly the comparably low health pool, low Speed and no compensation makes them also vulnerable to Siege, especially in high numbers. The exception is ofc when you “Goth Spam” as then you don’t have them collected at one spot, but for obvious Reasons it should be avoided to make “Goth Spam” the standard Infantry play.

issue No 4:
There is no specific “Counter Unit” available to all civs to counter the Militia Line. Most Civs have good Archers or Hand Cannons in the lategame. But whilst the Archer Line is quite effective against the Line, it’s more of a “soft counter”. Against high enough numbers of Miitia with upgrades an Archer switch won’t get the numbers to deal with it in time - the damage output is just too low in smaller Archer numbers.
Leading espeically on lower elos to the issues that players who aren’t used to it, can be completely overwhealmed by mass militia, especially as the archer line has a very high threshold in skill requirement before it can be used effectively.

Issue No 5:
Ther is no sufficient “Composition Partner” that synergizes with the militia line. In theory - against the best “counters” in the Archer and HC Lines - Skirms would be favorable. But Skirms don’t have high DPS - not even against Archers. In fact, skirms don’t have higher DPS against Archers than Archers themselves. And Siege is effective against both, Skirms and the Militia line. This is especially visible with the current Dravidians design, that has strong bonusses to both unit types. Yet we basically never see this combo. It’s just not working. Even with 33% higher DPS of the Skirms, which is exactly compensating the named issue of the comp. It’s still not enough. Siege is ofc an option. But Siege synergizes better with the spearman line anyways. There are very little situations where you will prefer the miltia line over the spears (most notably the mesos ofc). Somtimes we see Champs added to Arbs or CA, but then as a support unit, not as the main force of the army. And this is about looking for a support unit for the line. And there just isn’t one working at the moment.

issue No 6:
Too high food cost in the midgame. This isn’t necessarily an exclusive issue. Because there can be ways to cicumvent the negative effects of it. It’s not the Issue in Feudal. In Feudal you have to add a lot of Farms regardless to get up fast to Castle Age. That’s why it’s also not an Issue for scouts at this stage. And you can’t add extra TCs in Feudal to utilitze it instead. But once you get in Castle Age and you used the military Powerspike you want to boom behind. Then the food cost of a unit becomes a direct aversary of your Boom. That’s one of the main Reasons we don’t see Goths playing Milita at this stage. Pretty much preferring the other “Power Unit” options. Cause Goths want to boom to utilize their Infantry later.
But there are several ways to make this less of a factor. For example if the line would be utilized more in late Feudal you could use the Castle Age Powerspike more with it and compensate the economic burden by damaging the enemy. Or - like the current Warrior Pirests - if the main Counter was the Scout line, the opponent would be forced to spend a lot of food themselves…

Issue No 7:
Stone Defences. The Line atm has the “speciality” of dealing anti-building bonus Damage. Which is really nice against stuff like Mills and Markets. Also partially to Houses and Palisades. But especially stone Defences are really tough to deal with. Archers at least can shoot over them, for Cavalry you can utilize Petards quite effectively. But Petards don’t work well with the Militia line - as it is too easy to backwall. They aren’t as fast as the Cav to swarm in, so it’s way easier to contain them. And also again thanks to the low health pool they are prone to fall very fast against good defensive players. Siege, Monks, Archers, CA - Towers, and Castles.

issue No 8:
Low pop effiency. Even when you manage to get to the very lategame with them, the opponent often just can produe the more effective units. You either have to sacrifice eco or go in the fight with an effective ressource disadvantage. Usually we don’t see this kind of battle, as it doesn’t make any sense to take. Best example is again the Goths flood - just don’t take the direct battle but instead kill the eco. But when we talk about a “Power Unit” this is a basic requirement. It’s not possible to have a “Power Unit” which can’t take the direct standoff with the other “Power Units”.

Please note if I forgot something or you whish me to elaborate something more/better.

8 Likes

The feudal meta is evolving but m@a seems to be a spectator.

1 Like

This is imo capture in the first issue.
Though ofc you can Argue that even FU MAA are too weak in “late feudal” when compared with then high enough numbers of Archers and Scouts with Bloodlnes.

But mostly it’s just too costly to make a late MAA switch, with Supplies, MAA and Armor Upgrade required… When you have that much res, why not go for castle age directly where you can get Knights or XBows? And if you don’t have the res, it’s jsut too slow to get there with feudal economy.

General

Supplies and Arson are removed.
Militia line training time is increased 21 → 25 seconds.
Gambesons cost reduced 100 food, 100 gold → 50 food, 60 gold. Gambesons now gives +1/+1 armor.
Sanctity effect changed “Monks +15 HP” → “Monks +50% HP”. (For Armenians Warrior Priest)

Militia

HP increased 40 → 45. (Drush has become too weak nowadays as people are very good at quick wall and saving villagers. +5HP won’t be that big of a deal.)

Man At Arms

HP increased 45 → 55. (This is the hardest part as this unit is the most balanced in the entire line. I wanted to have them +1 MA to beat Bloodline Scout but I guess that will be too powerful).

Long Swordsman

HP increased 60 → 70
Upgrade cost increased 150 food, 65 gold → 175 food, 75 gold
Upgrade time increased 40 → 45 seconds

Two Handed Swordsman

HP increased 60 → 80
Attack reduced 12 → 11
Upgrade cost 300 food, 100 gold → 350 food, 150 gold
Upgrade time reduced 60 → 50 seconds

Champion

HP increased 70 → 90
Attack bonus vs Standard Building increased 4 → 5 (Still 1 less than current as Arson is removed)
Speed increased 0.90 → 0.95
Upgrade time reduced 85 → 75 seconds
I really want 100 HP for champion for everyone like current Armenians. But with so many civ bonuses, I know that will be too powerful.

Civilization Specific Changes

Armenians
Warrior Priest HP reduced 80 → 70

Aztecs
(Elite) Jaguar Warrior cost 60f/30g → 75f/15g.

Bengalis, Berbers, Bohemians, Burgundians, Chinese, Cumans, Hindustanis, Incas, Italians, Lithuanians, Magyars, Mongols, Poles, Turks
Champion is removed from tech tree.

Celts
Champion is replaced by Gallowglass.
Champion → Gallowglass
HP : 70 → 65
Attack : 13 → 12
Armor : 1/1 → 2/2
Upgrade cost and time : 750f/350g, 85 seconds → 600f/300g, 75 seconds

Georgians
Gambeson and Champion are removed from tech tree.

Goths
Infantries are 20%/25%/30%/35% cheaper in the Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Infantries are 15%/20%/25%/30% cheaper in the Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
“Infantries +1 attack bonus vs Standard Building per age” bonus is removed.

Gurjaras, Khmer, Tatars
Two-Handed Swordsman is removed from tech tree.

Japanese
(Elite) Samurai now takes 3 (5) less damage from UU.
Champion is removed from tech tree.

Malians
Barracks units +1 PA per age → Barracks units +1/+2 PA in the Castle/Imperial Age.
(This will make their MAA generic. But Malians have plenty of options anyway. So it won’t be an issue).
Alternative idea - Keep the civ bonus as it is. Remove Champion but add Blast Furnace. Reduce Farimba effect from +5 attack to +3 attack.

Portuguese, Sicilians
Gambesons is removed from tech tree.

Romans
Bloodlines is removed from Tech Tree.
(Elite) Centurion HP increased 110 (155) → 125 (175)
Legionary HP increased 75 → 85
Knight line doesn’t benefit from Comitatenses UT.
(This one was the hardest to balance. They have probably the best MAA and LS in the game. Changing their infantry bonus will only make them a pure cavalry civ which they already kinda are. So I tried the other way around).

Teutons
Elite Teutonic Knight PA increased 2 → 3.

Vietnamese
Gambeson is added to tech tree.

Vikings
Champion is removed from tech tree.
(Elite) Berserk HP increased 54 (62) → 62 (70) [Due to civ bonus will be Increased 65 (74) → 74 (84)]

2 Likes

I think the current design “good against trash units and buildings” could allow the line to become a dominant unit. Its current state does not.

Agreed, it requires all armor upgrades (including gambesons) and squires to be usable. The champion tech is too long and too expensive.

I feel it is fine by design. It works okay-ish against knights and die to xbows. I think a good fix would be to increase longsword synergy with hard counters (pikes/monks and mangonels/rams).

Yes. Knights run away and raid, xbows can still fight behind walls and increase tower damage.

Yes, they could be if they were more cost effective. With champions & hussars civs, I usually play hussars.

I think it is similar with archers vs. skirms and knights vs pikes/monks. In theory, if you have those counter units against 5 times the resources worth of power units, you should lose. It is fine to not be too hard countered if you do not counter too hard the most important units.

This is the biggest problem for me. Namely the complementary units synergize better with another broadly available unit.

According to their design, it should be fine, because trash units also cost a lot of food. I agree that they are overall to expensive for their value.

Yes, but I don’t think they should become good against stone walls

I would say in theory, it depends on the gold. If champions were cheaper or stronger or had better synergy with some counter units, they would be fine even if not as pop-efficient as a paladin.
In practice, the hussar trade very well against champions, namely 20 FU champions (900f 400g) fight equally against 22/23 Hussars (1800f). So you trade speed (raiding, fast arrival to battlefield) and no gold cost against resistance against halberdiers. Currently you cannot really push against a hussar civ with only champions, even if you managed to secure most of the gold/relics on the map, which is supposed to be one of the main win conditions for 1v1.

For me, by design champions should be the best unit in the game in late game 1v1, because there should be mainly trash units on the field. And if champions want to be fulfill their description of being “good against trash units”, it should strive in this setting. In Team games, champions should by design be overshadowed by other gold units.

I do not mind the current design, and would rather go along with it because I am conservative about changes in older games. But I don’t know what the devs and the community want to do exactly with this unit.

Why would it be too powerful/problematic for a maa to beat a scout ?

That is a lof of changes, and not many explanations. Basically you want the milicia line be become stronger and more expensive. Not sure what the impact of many changes would be on the current meta.

  • Is the objective mainly to increase the viability of good non-armenians champions in TG BF ?
  • If archers bully 45hp/0.9ms maa they should also bully more expensive 55hp/0.9ms maa as well.
  • Why integrate very minor changes such as making Gambesons cheaper and Longswords more expensive ? It decreases the visibility of the balance idea.

It may be nice for a mod (not for me, as I hate alternative upgrades) but it feels unrealistic that we will get so many changes of the same unit line at once.

I mean on top of the HP buff that I proposed.

Population efficiency.

Isn’t it really strange that the knight is more pop efficient than the longswordsman? It makes no sense!

For 1 pop, you are feeding:

  • the knight itself;
  • the horse; and
  • the squire.

It would be too drastic to change the population required to produce a knight, but what about reducing the population required to produce a longswordsman? To something between 0.5 to 0.75 population.

I compared with the longswordsman because it is available at the same age as the knight, but I would like to have this pop cost reduction available earlier, as a technology, in Feudal Age.

It could even be a second effect of supplies.

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This would be great, but there’s one problem: the karambit warrior. Maybe 0.75 population would work, though.

This would also supercharge Goths in late game, so that’s something to think about. Giving it to them might break them, but not giving it to them might hinder them. They would probably have to receive changes to balance out something like this.

They did that in AOE1. My guess is that they didn’t care that much about making militia line viable because there are Unique Units, unlike AOE1. The dev’s reasoning must have been, “want to use foot melee units in this iteration of the franchise? Teutonic knights and Woad Riders are much cooler”.

Think about it. THe two UUs I mentioned overcome militia line weaknesses: the first takes down heavy cavalry, the second is fast.

While the points make sense, Pop efficiency helps more in late game than mid-game.

1 Like

Actually, I have an idea to improve this long time ago but I cannot estimate the effect.

Remove gambeson, give a tech that instantly recover 1HP upon death and they will take one more hit to kill. It wastes more TC/castle/xbow focus fire.

What would the tech be called, Philosopher Stone? :smile:

2 Likes

If the swordsman is really supposed to be a tool specifically designed to fight all type of trash, it should cost no gold too but more expensive than other trash due to its stats, then keep weak against the two mainstream gold-costing meta units, archers and knights. Otherwise, spending gold on fighting trash is still a waste.

The Morale, maybe?

FOR THE KING! (“The last duel” quote)

I think sth. that would go a long way of helping the unit, would be to tackle the investment needed to tech into the swordsman line first. It is way to expensive and time consuming. This means to both address the timing of certain techs, their effectiveness or their existance all together.

My suggestions would be:
-Removing supplies and Arson to just implement their effects into the baseline unit meaning: Reducing the cost of the militia line to 45f/20g and giving the militia line (the infantry unique units and eagles) +2 attack vs. buildings (starting with men at arms)

Reasoning:

  • supply is the first annoying price tag players have to face, if they want to use the militia line to any degree past the initial rush in feudal age and already handicaps the usabilityof the unit
  • Arson is probably one of the most unnecessary price tags in the game. The effect is to weak to proritise and just feels like a needless handycap for a unit, that needs the extra help desperatly
  • Both drush and man at arm rush are not all that powerful right now and while this buff to those strategies is quiet substantial, but with how easily both rushes can be dealt with, I think this shouldn’t cause to many issues.
  • Due to the extra damage against buildings, the militia should be at least a bit better at pressuring the opponent, by being alot more capable of thretening Camps, production buildings or walls much earlier

Moving squires to the feudal age:

Reasoning:

  • Man at arms should at least have a chance of being kept alive in feudal age. While they still get hard countered by archers in Feudal age, they should through this at least be able to accomplish sth. notworthy and not just die immediatly
  • With squires being available in feudal age, it can be pre researched before hitting castle age and with the removale of supplies and arson, teching into Longswordsman should be a lot easier

Gambason giving 1/1 instead of 0/1 armor

Reasoning:

  • Why does the Militia line only trade evenly with the knight line? Even fully upgraded, the militia line is slower, more food intesive, less POP efficient and worse against ranged units. At least making the Longswordsman trade cost effective against knights should be reasonable.

Sth. I noticed whenever these threads come up, I have the feeling people are too afraid to give a sewerly underpowered unit, substantial buffs. The completly overtuned Infantry bonuses (which are this powerful to compensate for a terrible unit) can be toned down if need be. We are trying to buff the main line infantry unit to be viable alonside archers and knights, but are afraid of the unit actually becoming a meta unit, such as archers or knights.

We have to keep in mind in how bad of state the militia line is. Even without any upgrades the knight and crossbow are so powerful, that Civs will still go for these units, while not even goths will touch the longswordsman. There is an entire thread where people discuss how the dravidian Civ, even without any upgrades for the knight, should still get it, because the civ supposedly does not function without it. No matter how bad the upgrades, people will try to go for Archers or knights, but the miltia line is even with all upgrades almost unusable.

2 Likes

This would be a nerf to Goths and Slavs.

Slavs I understand and they would probably need to get a buff, but Goths I don’t understand.

With supplies and Arson being given essentially for free to all Civs, this would drastically buff Goths, who usually don’t get either upgrade to compensate for their powerful bonuses.

2 Likes

This delays to mass longswordsman and this is detrimental. Knight or CA can be massed after mid-castle age. And then early imp age, we have chemistry and HC. Infantry civs just dont have incentive to use longswords. Longswordsman should have a powerspike in early castle age instead.

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To some extent, maybe Supplies is about some delicate balance in my opinion. Having it or not is essentially more like the developers hinting to players whether they encourage you to use the Militia line of the civs. For example the Chinese don’t have Supplies (and the next Gambesons), i.e. the developers don’t encourage players to use their Militia line even though they have Champion upgrade, Plate Mail Armor and Blast Furnace. The exception is the powerful swordsman units, such as Legionary, must cost more food.

Now, the problem lies in the opposite direction, that is, having Supplies does not effectively encourage players to use the Militia line.

If the Militia line units are going to cost 45 food from the beginning instead, then I think their base training time should be increased and the Supplies should be used to reduce the time, to maintain the developers’ original intention of discouraging but still allowing players to use the Champions of certain civs.

The bonus attack against buildings is noticeable — when you have a sufficient number of infantry.
The Arson works for all infantry units, including some common ones like Halberdier, Eagle, Condottiero, Ghulam, Karaambit. If we just want to make the Militia line useful, we can simply increase their base attack bonus against buildings and not need to change Arson.

There were other threads discussing this a while ago, but now I don’t think it means much.
If Man-at-arms still have to spend 100 food and time to gain speed comparable to Archers, then they may still miss the best timing in the early Feudal Age. Imagine the faster Celt Man-at-arms with free bonuses. Even they can’t gain much advantage.

When you don’t have a reason to gathing enough Man-at-arms, you’re even less likely to use Longswordmen later. You’ve almost never seen them in any Hoang game.

Not against but not a fan too. If we can successfully encourage players to gather and use Longswordsmen in a better way through other buffs, then in terms of the cost of Longswordsmen, they should effectively compete with Knights. If you also give them +1 melee armor, then they might run the risk of being too strong.

Yup. Teutonic Knights with Arson will decimate buildings.