Comparison between my own civ designs and the upcoming new East Asian DLC

With the new DLC inbound, I’ll share some East & SE Asian civs that I designed earlier, and we can compare and contrast my designs with the devs’ designs. I’ll explain the history behind my choice of the UUs. I can read Classical Chinese and most of my units are based on historical records.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Chams (potential new SE Asian civ for AOE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

UU Mangpung is based on Song era records about the pirates active on the South China Sea. Some of them were Chams, and some of them were South Chinese groups and others. There were a group of people known as the She (輋) in Guangdong from the 1170’s to the 1190’s who traded heavily with SE Asia by smuggling iron and salt. Some of these South Chinese groups could have collaborated or even worked for the Chams. Song records mentioned that pirates active along the southern coast of China in the late 12th century often wore paper armor. In terms of gameplay this unit is kinda similar to an amphibious version of Eagle Warrior, being a fast raider on land and a one-man raft throwing fire bombs on water. Though since it carries the ship armor class it’s countered by Camels and Spears.

Unique upgrade the Elephant Crossbowman is based on a Tang era record saying that the soldiers of Lam Ap (predecessor of Champa) wore rattan armors and used bamboo bows and crossbows on the backs of elephants.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Bo / Baipu (potential new East Asian civ for AOE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

This one is basically the civ that covers Nanzhao, Dali, as well as all other South China ethnic groups or chiefdoms during the medieval era.

UU Luojuzi is based on a Tang record about the elite soldiers of Nanzhao, and them being skirmishers is kinda my deliberate interpretation although there’re numerous historical records dating back all the way to the Han era saying that the tribes in Southwest were proficient at using javelins and shields.

2nd UU Raeuz Tribesman is again based on Tang record. The Nanzhao used some of those southern tribes as their vanguard forces when they invaded the Tang in 829-830, and those southern tribes really hated the Tang so much that when they captured a Tang civilian they would cut off his or her nose and ears. Of course my version is much less brutal than the ones from actual history. Mine is a gatherer / infantry hybrid unit which could transition between the two modes with a switch just like how the Ratha is switching modes. The term “Liao” (僚) is a medieval Chinese blanket term for all Non-Sinitic tribes in South China. It likely derived from the Tai-Kradai word “Raeuz”, meaning “we” or “us”. To avoid any confusion with the Khitan Liao (遼) Dynasty (which these southern tribes had absolutely nothing to do with by the way), I decided to give them the Tai-Kradai Cuengh name “Raeuz”.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Tangut / Minyak (potential new East Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Looking back at my Tangut civ design from last year I feel that I was being a bit too conservative, especially when it comes to their UU.

The design of my Tangut UU is based on the Song record of the Tangut Poxi army with camel mounted catapults, although instead of designing it as a mobile siege unit like the devs did, I made it into sort of a mounted slinger on a camel with its primary focus being anti-infantry. I just didn’t think a fast siege unit would work in the game. Imagine a camel siege unit with similar range as a Mangonel or a Trebuchet but having 1.45 speed, it would be such a OP unit. With such a unit even noobs can beat Hera or the Viper under the right circumstances. Although to be fair to my design, historical records did mention that the Poxi was primarily used to deal with Song infantry and was not used in siege battles.

The 2nd UU Bubazi and the unique structure the Taojili Landmine were designed based on Song records as well as actual archaeological samples of the ceramic landmine.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Tibetans (potential new Central Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

The Tibetan UU is based on Tang records of Tibetan infantrymen, saying that they were especially strong in melee since their lances were longer and pointier than the ones used by the Tang Chinese. Their ability of having a pierce charged attack (by launching a javelin) is again based on records saying that tribes in the southwest of China were proficient with javelins.

Unique upgrade Imperial Steppe Lancer is kinda self-explanatory, though still based on Tang records about Tibetan lancers.

Gompa is their unique Monastery which is able to self-convert passing enemy units (same conversion speed and rate as a generic Monk without upgrades or civ bonuses), and Lama is their unique Monk which apart from having slightly higher HP than a generic Monk also has the ability to build and repair the Gompa.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Gokturks (potential new Central Asian / North Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

This one is supposed to be a civ that covers all early medieval North and Central Asian Turkic tribes.

Their UU the Chuy / Shatuo Cavalier is based on Tang records about the Shatuo people (Chuy being their endonym whereas Shatuo being the name given to them by the Chinese). They were originally a Western Gokturk tribe active in Central Asia before being pushed to the east by the Saracens and the Tibetans, seeking refuge in Tang territory. The Tang granted their asylum but also used them as shock cavalry to suppress internal rebellions and unruly warlords.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Siamese / Tais (potential new SE Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

This is perhaps the only civ in my designs which isn’t based on medieval Chinese records but rather based on a documentary I’ve watched about the Sukhothai and Ayutthaya kingdoms. This civ is supposed to cover all Indianized SE Asian Tai tribes, though it does not cover the Sinicized Tai-Kradai peoples who stayed in South China as those are covered by my Bo/Baipu civ instead.

Their UU the Elephant Arquebusier is based on a late medieval SE Asian unit common among SE Asian armies (not just among Thais although they continued to deploy such units all the way till the 19th century).

2nd UU the Chaturongkhabat is based on historical Ayutthaya infantry unit carrying the same name, their duty being protecting the war elephant from the attacks of enemy infantrymen.

3rd UU the Sangha is based on Theravada monks from SE Asia, although it being a mounted elephant monk is largely based on the Indian Brahmin explorers from AoE 3.

Also gave SE Asian civs a regional unit called the Apsara Dancer which is trained from their Monastery. It’s more of a meme / niche unit to give women more representation in the game (cause someone criticized my designs as lacking female representation). Though the Apsara Dancers did exist in real history not something I made up. Although being largely meme / niche, when used correctly this unit could influence the outcome of a battle with her aura effects, despite not having any means of attack herself.

User blog:MNOPSC1b/Jurchens (potential new Northeast Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

This civ of course covers the historical Jin dynasty as well as previous Tungusic kingdoms/chiefdoms like Sushen, Mohe, and Balhae / Bohai, and it partially covers the later 16th century Manchus as well.

The primary UU the Thunder-Crash Grenadier is based on Song records about the use of iron bombs and grenades among Jin armies, particularly during a siege battle between the two sides in 1221.

The 2nd UU the Iron Flail is based on the Iron Pagoda, though the reason I didn’t name it as such is because a few first-hand Song accounts claimed that the Iron Pagoda was a heavy siege infantry. The Iron Flail pays homage to AoE 3 as it echoes the unit with the same name in that game. Historically the flail was a weapon commonly used by the northern Asian peoples, the Jurchens, the Tanguts, the Chinese, the Mongols, and the Koreans all used it as a cavalry weapon, though for balance concerns I didn’t make this a regional unit.

The 3rd UU Doi Boat is based on medieval Japanese records about Jurchen pirates raiding the coasts of Japan in the year 1019 (if I remember correctly). I just think it’s time that we have a cavalry and cavalry archer civ that could be above average on water maps, and the Jurchens are a perfect candidate for such a civ.

Also gave East Asian civs (Chinese, Koreans, Jurchens, and Tanguts) the regional unit Fire Lancer like what the devs did with their new DLC. However unlike the devs my version is a flamethrower type akin to a Fire Ship on land. Based on a Song account from 1132, bamboo fire lances were used to set fire on enemy siege engines, which is where my idea of them being a flamethrower type unit came from.

Please share your honest thoughts and opinions about my civ designs, thanks for viewing.

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Also wanna share my thoughts about the new updates regarding the in-game Chinese civ

Gain access to Fire Lancers: nothing surprising cause it’s a new regional unit for East Asian civs and the Chinese definitely had them historically

Gain access to Rocket Carts: again expected as it’s another regional unit

Gain access to Lou Chuans: this means they’ll lose access to Cannon Galleons, but I’m curious to see whether this is a regional unit or a Chinese specific unit

Gain access to Dragon Ships (unique upgrade to Fire Ships): unique upgrades are a nice addition I think there should be more unique upgrades in the game

Fire Lancers and Fire Ships move 5/10% faster in Castle/Imperial Age: sounds okay to me nothing surprising or broken. Since the Chinese will be losing access to Camel Riders I’m curious to see if the Fire Lancers will be their new primary anti-cavalry unit and how they’ll compare to the Camels when it comes to anti-cavalry abilities.

Demo Ships +50% HP civ bonus removed: I’m curious to see which civ they’ll give this bonus to. It could be one of the five new civs, but then again I don’t think Khitans, Jurchens, or Tanguts are suitable for this bonus cause none of them were naval powers historically. IMO this civ bonus would be most suitable to a new SE Asian civ, either the Chams or the Javanese.

Elite Chu Ko Nu attack increased from 8 to 10: better stats but more expensive to upgrade, though without the need to research another tech (Rocketry) to get it, sounds fair

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I hope the Japanese get it too because they have a comparable ship.

It would be funny to see the Gokturks having pikemen and siege onagers, while the Turks in the game have neither :smiley: It’s like the Prussians being able to field the jet Me 262, while WWII-era Germans don’t even know what a biplane is. :smiley:

Jokes aside, I liked the designs overall. Maybe you could create new upgrades for existing units, like Monks or Elite Steppe Lancers, which could make the civilizations more unique.

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If you want a colorful-sounding name more befitting a game, call them Black Crow (an existant translation of Chinese Ya’er Jun or Heiya Jun), which is the name of said shock trooper unit.

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Demo Ships +50% HP civ bonus removed: I’m curious to see which civ they’ll give this bonus to. It could be one of the five new civs, but then again I don’t think Khitans, Jurchens, or Tanguts are suitable for this bonus cause none of them were naval powers historically. IMO this civ bonus would be most suitable to a new SE Asian civ, either the Chams or the Javanese.

AFAIK there’s no recorded use of demolition ships (historical fire ships) in Javanese usage, but there is one during the Portuguese attack on Melaka in 1511, used by the Malays against the Portuguese armada. So IMO the bonus is better suited for the Malays than the Javanese. The Malays also used fire ships (demolition ships) against the Dutch in the 1700s.

The fraud Thirisadai that the devs tried hard to cover/justify should be cleared, with the tanky naval unit assigned to Javanese civ. The whole Chola navy debacle has been identified as hoax by an Indian historian. The large size of Thirisadai reflects the true size of Javanese jong, which is the main Javanese warship. Also, the Borobudur ship model used by Thirisadai is sourced from the Borobudur temple, made by the Javanese Shailendra dynasty.

The Chola empire which is reflected by the Dravidians, is more like a land-based empire with a focus on infantry and elephantry. The maritime aspect of the Cholas instead refers to the Tamil merchant activities and a narrow 50-year timeframe when the Cholas invaded SEA. The 50 years is a small window compared to the 1000 years of the Chola dynasty’s existence. Making the Cholas/Dravidians a naval civ is like making China/Ming Dynasty a naval civ because of the 30-year small time window (Zheng He expedition). In the newly-released Civilization 7, Ming Dynasty is not made a naval civ because of this logic/reasoning.

Original post by benithisrael, all thanks to him for letting us know the existence of the new book!

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The Malays are already quite strong on water and giving them this would be somewhat of an overkill. I think something needs to be taken out from their Dock if you wanna give them this bonus, like taking out their Elite Cannon Galleon for instance.

Alternatively this bonus could be given to a potential new Chams civ. Although there aren’t that many records about their naval exploits, from some sources I’ve read they were pretty active on the South China Sea as pirates and they did use fire weapons to attack enemy vessels.

I’m not that familiar with Indian history, but if a new Javanese civ is introduced then maybe the devs will make the change.

Well the AoE 2 Chinese civ doesn’t only cover the Ming but also Tang and Song, and the Southern Song had a quite formidable navy. And I think the new changes about the Chinese civ are justified. The changes won’t make them a naval civ but would just make them slightly better on water.

Let me tell you something as both a gamer and a game designer.

A civilization that’s a menace on the seas but awful on land is far more interesting than one that’s just kinda good on water and okay on land.

Wow! i appreciaate you taking the effort to put it for the community. Tamil country is the civilization Cholas represent. Tamils did achieve a great deal of weath by sea bourne trade of pearls, spices and other luxury items of the mideval world. The civ in the game however lacks all late game techs.

Currently Dravidians is the civ with the worst pick rate across all elos across all maps. They are not picked on water either consistently. Thay are not top 5 picks in islands, nomad, salt lake or mediterranean. If you make a civ unpopular for land playstyle, most players will not seek it out to play water either. It should be like vikings and malay. The eco bonus should help both land and water playstyle. This is one of the main reasons I am skeptical of water civs being added to the game. Nobody plays them. Making water civs compatabile with Arabia or Arena is a better design.

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Having a couple of civs that perform poorly on Arabia and Arena is fine with me, as long as they shine on other maps.

If the Dravidians aren’t particularly strong on water maps, yeah that should be addressed.

AOE2 is not your run of the mill game design where aesthetics differentiate 5 main characters with different elemental powers used for different terrain. The popular maps are more important and civs should be designed to fit playstyle needed on those maps. Otherwise no one will play the civ.

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Literally who are you? What games have you made? If I haven’t heard of them, you aren’t successful, just egotistical and looking for any excuse to look down on the opinions of others.

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As someone who has never made a game but is a civ crafter I speak on the behest of my competitors/civ crafters (who I shouldn’t see as competition but I have a long unreachable goal) i feel like its unfair to judge someone because they cant make games

Sure the opinion was bad but most of us here have no games or mods made. I wish i had that skill but I wasnt born disciplined in that way to work with other than words