Counters vs the eagle runner knight? [HELP PLS]

[Quirriff]

TLDR: Eagles are goons and goons are weak vs skirms/archers and hand infantry. that get close.

I’ve always found that hand infantry are quite effective if you’re fighting Aztecs, since Coyotes are more numerous and skinner than cavalry making goons less effective. So if you’re smart you already have hand infantry which are effective vs eagles. Dops have a huge AOE eagles are more tightly packed than goons and skirmishers provide cover fire.

Yes Skirmishers are the ideal counter but think about this: Eagles will die very quickly if they get in range of Pikes and Dopps.

So basically Doppels with skirmisher so soften them up.

[Ekdal1378]

They are ranged infantry, but not infantry. The red icon doesnt applies for them, sorry!!
Canons are effectice cause they have lees space than dragoons and hace less HP.
Upgraded Skirmishers beat them I play azzys and coyotes are a must for them. Try canons + doppels and some Skirms

[Ekdal1378]

Be careful with HI, JPK kill them like a Knife cuts butter. Also doppels/sams are the exception

[JordiGarLee]

He doesn’t have a “goon” or light ranged cavalry tag.

Skirmishers do counter light cavalry, but ERK are shock infantry, like a coyote warrior with a ranged attack.

Compare it to a dragoon that does have the tag.

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If it really is meant to be countered by skirmishers, they should have the tag, shouldn’t they?

[Ekdal1378]

Shock Infantry is like Cavalry, which Skirmishers dont counter BUT ERKs have ranged shock infantry tag which is countered by Skirmishers with a bit smaller bonus than light cav

[newaoeiiiai]

eagle runner knights don’t have the ranged shock infantry tag, as such a tag does not exist in the game files. instead they have the “light infantry” tag, which is shared by melee shock infantry. actual light infantry such as archers and skirmishers have a direct 2x bonus vs eagle runner knights. they also have no multiplier vs the “light infantry” tag, instead a .75x malus vs the coyoteman tag, which only effects melee shock infantry.

I assume this was a mistake, as the warchiefs expansion was hilariously buggy, unbalanced and inconsistent with its tags. melee heavy infantry have a bonus vs the “light infantry” tag, and actual ranged light infantry have a bonus directly vs eagle warriors and a malus vs the coyoteman tag. abus are an exception, and have a .5x malus directly vs the “light infantry” tag and a 1.5 bonus vs eagle runners, meaning they don’t actually counter eagle runners.

that means light infantry have a 2x bonus vs eagle runner knights and no penalties, unlike with cavalry/light cavalry. they will still lose 1v1 against them though, you must have numbers advantage. removing the confusing and inconsistent coyoteman/“light infantry” tags and rebalancing coyote runners and eagle runners around cavalry/light cavalry tags would be the best way forward.

hidden tags and inconsistent/counter intuitive bonuses/malus have always made the native American expansions in aoe a downgrade to the vanilla games balance and clarity. aoe4 should avoid the needless and dumb mistakes of classifying native American warriors with their own counter system that breaks with the previous system and requires reading the game files to understand how it functions. there’s a reason the war chiefs expansion was the worst product ensemble studios ever released and its online player base was a joke. it was half baked, filled with random bs and hidden mechanics.

the coyoteman tags have no icon, and direct bonus vs units also have no icon, so it is not possible to understand these interactions without digging into the game files. there’s nothing in game that indicates that light infantry deals bonus damage vs eagle warriors, or have a penalty vs melee shock infantry.

[Ekdal1378]

They cant do that cause shock infantry dont have the cav’s HP/Attack.
Like have you said Skirmishers have a bonus vs ERKs, as I said before… because ERK is the only unit with that “tag”

[newaoeiiiai]

eagle runners have among the highest attack/hp per pop of any unit in the game. there is no 1 pop light cavalry unit that can compete with them, either Keshiks, zamburaks and Ruyter compare badly against them. they are among the most pop efficient unit in the game.

then there is the coyote runner, and the exact opposite is almost true.

they should be rebalanced around having the cavalry tag, rather then being ported into the tags as is.

there is no eagle runner exclusive tag. light infantry bonuses are directly against the unit, hence no icon.

[Ekdal1378]

I know that OMG because ERK is unique, they dont need a Tag for one unit and skirmishers are the only ones with bonus vs light cavalry specifically

[JordiGarLee]

@newaoeiiiai

I assume this was a mistake, as the warchiefs expansion was hilariously buggy, unbalanced and inconsistent with its tags.

Huh, you are right! checking the wiki of the legacy games there are indeed bonuses directly to ERK by skirmishers, not in DE however, even dragoons dont show that they counter shock infantry in their multipliers when they obviously do.

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If any devs are watching this, please check their tags, we are very much confused by this heheh

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The ERK might be stronger than the skirmisher even with a slight number disadvantage tho (As shown on the above video), BUT, the one way to know for sure if they do a multiplier damage vs the ERK is to test it myself, ill be right back from the editor using UN-upgraded units straight up at age 3.

WELL, this is some interesting data.
They don’t have the tag but they still get x2 damage from skirmishers, they only reduce the multiplier because of the 30% ranged armor they have, so in the end, a skirmisher that has 15 attack, doesn’t do 30, 21 damage (According to calculations and in game testing).

Funny how they still win in a 1v1 combat or a huge army vs a huge army, even with cost equality.
Heck, they even perform better with their ranged attack rather than the melee attack.

• In 1v1 a ERK wins using ranged damage with 54 health left consistently.
  

  

• In 1v1 a ERK wins using melee damage with 54 health left consistently.
  

  

It really comes down to the ERK being a stronger unit in health (60 extra hp), damage output is the same (5dps instead of the skirmisher’s 2,5dps as base damage, with multipliers both do 5dps and then it’s just the armor reduction).

The do the same dps if you look at it like that, but the ERK fires twice as fast nonetheless, and that always makes big fights go to their advantage since they eliminate skirmishers earlier and with less overkill waste that is why they act as the better counter in the end with better cost-effectiveness.

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In conclusion, update the tags please :v

[newaoeiiiai]

@WilyRumble31306

Huh, you are right! checking the wiki of the legacy games there are indeed bonuses directly to ERK by skirmishers, not in DE however, even dragoons dont show that they counter shock infantry in their multipliers when they obviously do.

that is becuase light cavalry have bonuses vs coyoteman tag, not the “light infantry” tag. and since coyoteman tag has no icon the bonuses are hidden:
type=“AbstractHeavyCavalry”>3.000000</damagebonus
type=“AbstractCoyoteMan”>2.250000</damagebonus

btw the ottomans have no effective counter unit vs eagle runners, with abus failing to take down a single eagle runner in a 2v1 despite taking 2 pop space and nearly losing the 1v1.

[Ekdal1378]

Mass skirms win vs mass ERKs, thats a fact since legacy. Aztecs werent top tier on treaty cause a single kind of unit killed every aztec unit. Also in DE they have to train coyotes if they want win the battle.

[hamletlopez]

Everybody knows Aztecs die vs Skirmisher + Cannons. Maybe some doppels to protect cannons from Coyote Runners.

[matazombis4087]

they are shock infantry but they receive bonus damage as if there were light range cavalry (not shown on IU)
so the only uni that kills light range cavalry are skirmishers, etc. preferibly if they have a long range.

Bonus versus eagle runner knight is not applied

Is the Shock Infantry tag used for anything? The Eagle Runner Knight is the only unit that I can think of that has that tag without having the Hand Shock Infantry tag. Maybe this tag should be completely removed from the game and for those few cases where something is applied to Hand Shock Infantry* and Eagle Runner Knights they should just be added manually. Maybe the Eagle Runner Knight tag should not be hidden in general. It might be a useful tag for future units. This unit is the most co…

[matazombis4087]

and please

■■■ coyote hidden bonus too. javalin deals bonus damage to coyote that is not shown on IU, years waiting for this, just solved it once for all.

it deals 20 to coyote. meaning that is less than 3.1x to coyote tag

[EaglemutOP]

Javelin Rider has 2.2x bonus vs Coyote Runners, it is not hidden I can see it on your image.

10 damage times 2.2 bonus times 0.9 resist = 19.8 ≅ 20 (rounded)

EDIT: Oh I see, you are looking at MELEE attack, that is the issue. They are doing ranged attack.

[newaoeiiiai]

really irritating thing about eagle runners is that abus guns deal .5x damage vs all light infantry and only a 1.5x bonus against eagle runners, compared to the .75x vs coyoteman tag (melee shock infantry) and 2x bonus vs eagle runners for skirmishers.

falconets are a more cost and pop effective counter vs eagle runners than abus guns. And there is no way to know without checking the game files.

[newaoeiiiai]

another problem with hidden multipliers is gatling camels, with culverins, huaracas, and siege elephants all dealing massively varying amounts of damage to them.

culverins get a special 4x bonus vs gatling camel, which combined with another 4x vs artillery boosts this to 16x, then half vs cavalry to 8x, one shotting them in most cases. hauraca deal half damage against them due to .5x cavalry malus and no other bonus, making them a poor counter. siege elephants only have a 1.25 damage bonus, increasing damage from 40 to 50. compare that to culverins x8 bonus, with damage increasing from 40 to 320.

abus guns are screwed, dealing 1*.5*.5*1.5 damage, or .375 multiplier. thats 15 damage a shot.

[howlingwolfpaw]

Yet Jan Abus is one of Aztecs hardest matchups to counter.

[newaoeiiiai]

abus do not counter eagle runners. abus nearly lose the 1v1 despite being half the pop and supposedly being a counter unit, and 2 eagle runners will demolish an abus gun. jans cost the same as skirmishers and have less range, performing worse against eagle runners compared to skirmishers and will also lose the 1v1.