Cuman UT proposal - phosphorus arrows

An idea to replace the Cuman Imp UT:

Cav archers and xbows deal +6 damage vs buildings.

First of all, I thought the Mayan Obsidian Arrows UT was really fun. It is probably for the better that Mayans lost it, but I still miss it.
Secondly, I don’t like the UT Cuman Mercenaries.
Third, Cuman HCA are sad, and I’d love to see them get a niche. This UT would increase the urgency with which you have to respond to a Cuman Cav Archer raid, whilst leaving the unit relatively weak. (-1 range and -1 damage compared with FU HCA).
I think having (cav) archers that are a little weak against units but strong against buildings could maybe result in fun gameplay.

Burning buildings to the ground fits thematically with what I remember from the Cuman campaign. I have no idea about historical accuracy, but I’d guess this idea is about as accurate as Mayan “El Dorado” eagles.

Possible variants:

  1. Increase damage by +1 in addition to increasing the damage vs buildings. This would leave HCA almost as strong against units as normal FU HCA (only missing 1 range). The xbows probably still wouldn’t be worth using, but who knows :wink:
  2. Apply the UT to skirms and/or Kipckaks too :upside_down_face:
  3. Grant bonus damage against siege, either in addition to the bonus damage against buildings or instead of the bonus damage against buildings. Catapults burn well too :stuck_out_tongue:
  4. Remove Chemistry from the tech tree. The UT grants +2 attack. Elite Kipchaks are adjusted (?)
  5. As an additional effect, grant all missiles +3 bonus damage vs ships.

This is just the Obsidian nightmare that just left a year ago xD. When paired with Steppe husbandry, this could be deadly.


It’s not too bad of an idea but it gets in the way of Saracens getting siege CA back so no thx

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Mayans have Obsidian on cheap Arbs, with Cumans lacking Bracer this might be justifiable.

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In what world you live? Obsidian Arrows was removed long time ago because was broken, even Mayans are still Broken without It.

And lol archer bonuses vs buildings is just a bad design to the game, and that idea is Broken with Cumans, esp with Steppe Husbandry.

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I’m sorry but kipchaks have what basically is the equivalent of machine guns in the game. And now you want what is a machine gun with bonus damage against buildings? I’m sorry but that would be broken OP.

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Cuman Mercenaries tech could be restructured instead to allow allies to buy Kipchaks at castle with gold. Some part of the gold will be paid to the player who researched it. Make it castle age tech so that allies can use the Kipchaks when required. Rather than a late game tech.

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Heavy cavalry archer have 1 more attack than Arbs and they’re fast moving units which makes this bonus deadly. That too the Cuman ones are much faster. The lack of bracer hurts a lot in a regular melee-ranged fights but not in this case. Cuman CA can just run, break buildings kill vills and run away again. Once a batch is dead the next will be ready very quickly because of steppe husbandry.


Well Mayans have cheaper archers that can be fully upgraded. Meanwhile can you tell me the last time you saw a Cuman HCA? As of archers being good against buildings being bad design, it’s probably not applicable to all kinds of archers. After all people were hardly caring about the ele archer having bonus damage vs buildings, or Saracens CA having 2/3 of this UT’s effect for free and in castle age during 20 years.

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Thanks for your comments everyone!

Regarding comparisons with Mayans:
Mayans are broken (thanks for backing me up on this @FurtherLime7936 :grin:). Mayans were even more broken. They had a unit that is well-suited to a 1-TC imp with a 20-30% discount, fully upgraded, and with a castle age UT that allowed it to raze castles. Oh, and two potent eco bonuses besides that.
Mayan Arbs cost 31.5 gold, whereas Cuman HCA cost 60 gold. Which I think is a rather important point.

Regarding Steppe Husbandry:
HCA cost 60 gold. At the pro level HCA strategies usually revolve around staying on 1 TC and having more military than your opponent. Phosphorus Arrows would be an Imp UT. I really can’t see extreme HCA spam being a valid strategy. @Pulikesi25, where would you get all the gold from? If you want to send out many batches of 30 HCA, you need 1800 gold per batch.
I suppose it could be an issue in Free For All and Diplomacy games. I don’t often think about those game modes.

Regarding HCA being too fast:
Maybe. If there’s a reason this tech would be broken, this is the reason. I’m not good enough to be confident that this wouldn’t be the case. That said, Marauders are fast building raiders too, and I can’t see any particular reason why Phospor HCA would be a nightmare when Marauders are not.

Regarding archer anti-building damage being intrinsically unfun / bad design (@Pulikesi25 @FurtherLime7936):
That’s your opinion, and I acknowledge that it’s not an irrational opinion. Some people like vanilla, others like chocolate. I’m of the opinion that Obsidian Arrows was awesome, even if it had to be removed because Mayans were are broken.

I’m not certain whether you’re right, but I agree it’s a risk. That’s why my primary proposal only gives bonus damage to archers, xbows, CA and HCA. Only variant [3.] would give Kipchaks bonus damage vs buildings too.

I’m sure the devs will be happy to learn that there exist people who like the Cuman Mercenaries UT :slight_smile:

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make it +4 at most, could still stack with the current mercenaries tech, so the cuman player gets a benefit in 1v1. doesnt apply to allies

The 1 tc play is mostly when you have to be all-in till you do enough damage to your opponent, so it’s not mandatory to do that. Cumans can add eco early, do light cav-knights/lancers or just camels and then transition into HCA in imp. For 1v1 it might not be as feasible as Obsidian was in open maps but definitely Op in team games.

I assume by Marauders you mean Tarkans. They’re melee units, move slower than CA, lower rof and need to surround a building when they’re in large numbers. Archers can just stack and all attack at the same time.

If we were all playing single player then it’s completely fine. Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. Obsidian was fun for the players who used it and those who watched but was a nightmare for those who were against it.


It’s nothing to do with personal preference. It’s a matter of negative player experience.

In the same way monoblobbing is discouraged in every strategy game, regardless of who may like it.

It simply generates too high of a negative player experience for the opponents

Then again, people complained about Saracens market abuse into siege xbows, not Saracens market abuse into siege CA, despite the latter being much better against buildings than the former for the longest time. So if there is no “negative player experience” regarding cav archers that get +4 damage vs buildings, for free since castle age, and that can be fully upgraded later in the game, there probably won’t be for the same thing but locked behind an imperial age UT and without bracer.