I think it might be interesting to move the Cuman Mercenaries technology to Castle age - granting access to a limited number of Elite Kipchaks.
Currently the tech costs 650 food 400 gold, and grants 10 Elite Kipchaks (‘worth’ 600 wood 350 gold).
Suppose the the tech was moved to Castle age, what should the cost be adjusted to?
And would it be possible to allow 20 kipchaks instead of 10? 10 just feels like so little. Maybe the tech could be made repeatable. I can see it would be hard to balance.
Other people have been saying they think that the Cuman Kipchaks should be stronger than their allies True Mercenary Kipchaks. I might as well say here that I think it’s kindof cool that those Kipchaks can benefit from their hosts’ techs and thus become stronger.
For the other UT, at the moment it costs 200 food 300 wood, and makes Light Cav, Steppe Lancers, and CA produce twice faster. It’s good for the Light cavalry, but it’s a bit sad that the CA are generally not worth using and Steppe Lancers are dubious in Imp, where Paladin are usually preferred.
Maybe it could be interesting to discount Steppe Lancers, CA, maybe even discount Cavalier and remove Paladin.
Would 20% discounted HCA without bracer be useful? It sounds comparable to Hun HCA. It probably still would be overlooked in favour of Kipchaks regardless, but it would be nice if it could be ‘theoretically’ useful.
Similarly, would 20% discounted ESL be sufficient for Imp? I feel like they might need a little extra punch. Both Mongol and Tatar ESL get a unique bonus…
Anyway that’s a longwinded way to suggest the other UT could be changed to discount CA, Step Lancers, and Cavalier by 20%. I don’t know how much such a tech would have to cost. I don’t even know if it’s a good idea. There is some deliberate overlap with Huns & Berbers here.
Steppe Husbandry is a very good designed and a very useful technology for the Cuman civ. It complements even more the cuman ability to go really all in with castle age, flooding units after their big feudal boom, and ending game with capped rams, and fast producing light cavs (or cav archers if you go that route). The cavalry archer +50% production speed makes perfect sense for castle age for cumans, precisely because they don’t feel the effect of lacking bracer while in Castle Age.
You moving it to imperial age or reworking it is a straight up nerf to the civ, and also making a mess of their identity.
Also theres bound to be confusion when a unit line is named exactly the same as a unit type ( there’s Cavalry Archer the unit, Cavalry Archer the unit type, and Cavalry Archer the armor class )
Paladin was competing with Konnik for usage whereas the Cumans don’t have any cav that compete with Paladins
I agree with FurtherLime though, 10 of the 35 civs have paladin of which Celts and Byzantines don’t use them. If people want to remove it from civs, they should remove it from those two civs first
Not to be blunt but what is the point of these changes? Cumans are a good civ right now - these would be massive changes for a civ that is in a fine place
I think the Bulgarian case is ok to make Stirrups complete and this is a thing that we should credit you
But I don’t see reason for other paladins civs to lose them, is already the rarest upgrade.
Completely agree. Bulgarians had a perfect setup to lose Paladin, with potential for exceptional Cavaliers and a heavy cavalry UU. It made sense for them.
I don’t think there is another civ that would be in a similar position. Yeah you could argue Celts have no use for them, and Byz to a lesser extent. You could remove them with limited balance impact, but I don’t really see any reason to do it.
For all remaining civs, Paladins are an integral part of their tech tree and design, and removing it would massively upset the identity of the civ in question.
If it wasn’t clear - the reason for this proposal is that I find the (current) Cuman Mercenaries tech a bit lame. (In the 1v1 context.)
Getting 10 Elite Kipchaks in Imp is lame.
Getting 20 Elite Kipchaks in Castle age would not be lame.
Maybe a compromise between these 2 would be possible.
I was asking if anyone sees how it could be balanced.
I’m a bit sad all these all these reactions only react to the Steppe Husbandry change. I can see that the change I proposed probably isn’t a good idea. Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned this idea at all, knowing how this forum works. If anyone can to come up with a positive suggestion/idea which also changes Steppe Husbandry that would still be welcome.
Elite UUs should never be on the Castle Age, since the vast majority of them would just roll over Castle Age units (obvious exceptions, like the Elite Karambit Warrior).
If it was 10 Kipchaks, and they could not be upgraded to Elite by Team mates, it would be far more balanced, while having what I assume is the desired effect.
I thought people generally agree vanilla CA specifically aren’t that great in castle.
But i agree cuman seem to be a castle centric civ with their lack of heavy camel as well as the uber nerf of no bracer.
Why are we making CA when you already have a castle to make superior and cheaper kipchaks?
Agree
Paladin is an integral part of cuman design? Lol you really think that? They couldn’t be buffed in any other way and actually give them more of an identity closer to their actual history instead of having the most powerful FU level of melee cav in the game? Far ahead of even byz paladins who are supposed to be rocking the armoured cav instead of some semi nomadic tribe
I’d like the Cuman Mercenaries force to feel like a (small) army. A force you can actually do something (ie push a strategic area/castle) with. To me 20 units generally is a small army, whereas 10 units is a raiding party/minor reinforcements.
On what basis do you say that 20 units is too many?
Would 15 Elites be ok?
I can see there’s a difficulty balancing for team games. If 4 players in a team suddenly have a small army that’s a big power spike, probably OP.
There’s also the issue that the Cuman player has to pay up-front for his small army of Kipchaks - which is a major downside and gets worse as the Kipchak force gets bigger. As a result the Cuman Kipchaks have to be worth more than the investment, but to multiply that by 4 in a team game…
Maybe there is something to be said in favour of nerfing the Allies’ Kipchaks after all, eg make them Elite only when they’re produced in Imp. (But still allow the Cuman player a limited number of Elites in Castle age.)
10 kipchaks in middle castle age would be a lot more useful for raiding than in early imp, the problem though isn’t the cost of the UT, but the fact that it gives 10 elite kipchaks, have elite kipchaks in castle age may be too much, while having castle kipchaks for allies without the upgrade to make them elite may be too little.
If it the kipchaks are upgraded to elite only when the cuman player hit imp, then it’s balanced in my opinion.
Also, SH should be in imp, since with the faster hussars and the double TC it becomes so powerful the tech.
If the cuman player pays for the UT every time, then it’s balanced and he can research it all the times he wants.
It’s just difficult to balance it on the base of how many kipchaks the allies have, so maybe there should be just a timer.
