Discussing Monks

Alright so you all probably heard the pros discontent with monk conversion RNGs in competitive age of empires II. Basically the common complaint its that the RNG of the monk is unfun to play against and to play with.
Because there are a lot of games in which you’re depending on those conversions, now, we can all say that “if you’re depending on monk conversions you probably dont deserve to win the game” and while that is true, the scenarios in which monk conversions can turn the tide of battles for better or for worse happen more often than you’d think.

To adress this, I already thought of a couple ideas. First one:
-Make monk conversion a fixed “playlist”, best way to explain this is with an example: the 1st conversion of every monk will always be instant, the 2nd will always take the longest time possible, the 3rd takes half the time and so does the 4th, then it is instant again and repeat. This makes it so that every monk investment is pretty much always going to pay for itself if you’re paying attention and you’re converting easy-to-convert units.

-Make monk conversions tied to player score, my idea of this is that the player thats behind in score could have easier conversions and the further behind you are, the easier conversions get. Now this raises a lot of questions, first the balancing, what stops a player from just massing monks when behind? Well, if you’re behind its obviously going to be harder for you mass monks than to your opponent, and your opponent can easily make scouts if he realizes, because he’s ahead. Another matter that makes me like this idea is that monk conversions are based on faith right? Well historically difficult situations are fertile grounds for faith, so it makes sense.

-Another way we could go with this is tie the conversions to something else, the problem with monks is how RNG based and unreliable they are. So making it less RNG even if slight will always be a step in the right direction imo. Make the amount of relics you have strengthen monk conversions, make a momentum based system where, the more conversions you get, the easier it gets to convert.

Obviously new ideas are welcome as long as it stays friendly.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ageofempires/images/8/80/Atonement_anim_aoe2de.gif/revision/latest?cb=20201129072535

WOLOLO

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I think they could make it so that each player gets the same RNG on their monks, but it’s still random. this way you avoid one player getting really lucky with conversions. Or just narrow the range of the RNG

i dont like this. score is a pretty bad indication of who’s ahead. also it weirdly punishes scouting and messes with campaigns where score can be pretty random

this is a good idea

this isn’t. monks are already very snowbally. if anything make it so that more conversions make further conversions harder

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Tbf people from all aspects have complained about the RNG. Since it’s the only unit that suffers from it to that extent

CA without TR for example are almost never used specifically due to their poor accuracy (which is technically RNG)

Just reduce the RNG. You don’t need all these weird changes that most people won’t understand or understand how to leverage.

Simply reduce min and max times. Re-assess. It’s been done before, but not enough

People dont understand monk conversions already, unless you are interested in that kind of stuff (aoe2 Pro or if your name is T-West/Spirit of the Law),

Reducing the RNG works fine, just have to be careful that doesnt make it unbalanced, must be a reason they havent done this already.

I thought of something like this when I tried to make a civ concept. It was basically the Inquisition, but linked to the relics; the idea being to strongly encourage the use of conversions. But I could never test to see how viable it would be :confused:

I think this is the more practical solution.

But I have another gimmick alternative:

-All units have a faith “HP”, from 0 to 100, and a Faith Armor Class.
-Monks have an “attack” that deals 25 “damage” to Faith Armor and reduce his own Faith HP too (-25 points).
-When target’s faith HP reachs 0 the unit is converted and recieve +50 faith HP.
-If monks faith reachs 0 (exahusted) he must wait ultil faith recharge to 25 points (this mean, each “attack” consumes 25 faith).
-This faith gauge regen slowly for both, attacked units and monks (A little faster for monks). This mean that a unit can scape from convertion, but its faith remains weak for a period.
-An exahusted monk is easy to convert by enemy monks.
-A recently converted unit is easy to re-convert than a non attacked unit.
-Lets say Monk’s RoF is 5. When a group of monks target the same unit. The first attack do full damage but next faith attacks during next 5 secs will do only 20% damage (Still consume 25 faith for all monks). This mean, for insta-convertion you need 16 monks, and f.e 3 monks can convert a knight in 3 wololos but all of them consume a total of 225 fatih HP to make the conversion.
-Nerf to building construction denial by targeting vils repeatedly.
-No more “charge” convertion with buildings.

Some tech/bonuses changes:
-Faith and Convertion resistance (Teutons): it means positive faith armor.
-Inquisition (Spanish): More faith “attack”
-Illumination: Faith regen is faster for Monks
-Theocracy: Monk’s faith HP consumed for attack reduced.
-First Crusade: Could give more faith regen for all units instead of convertion resistance (faith armor). To differenciate of Teutons.

Some new tech/bonuses that this mechanic could able:
-Warrior Monk: Each melee attack make some faith HP damage too. Potencially you could take a fight, weaken enemy’s faith and try to convert them.
-Relics: Could provide buff to faith attack, armor, or regen.
-Enemy’s faith HP is visible. It means, more efficient conversion. Still require micro
-Own Units’ faith HP is visible. It means, more efficient protection vs enemy monks. Still require micro
-Elephants could have a extremely faster faith regen but negative faith armor. This mean that they are easy to convert, but you need more than one monk to do it.

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I actually think that monk conversion windows are already to narrow for casual players.

I don’t particularly like monks as a concept because they’re a unit with an active ability, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I don’t think it should be taken as a given that monks should be predictable.

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I love this idea, It is probably too complex maybe but js a very solid starting point!

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I would make Monks easier to “micro” like with a hotkey you can go right to the next unit of the same type (with ctr and shift you can also precisely make group sizes of other units if you like).

And then just mostly increase the minimum conversion time for all units.

This would make monks also usable for slower folks.

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Huh? I don’t think you understand what the intended changes are

You are literally implying that monks should be able to convert units faster. Think about it. A broader window means lower min and higher max time.

“How did my opponent insta convert my units”

“Toughetrack said casuals need a broader conversion window”

That’s my point. They already don’t understand and now you suggest an even more complex method.

“Why is my opponent getting such lucky conversions”
“Because he Kept his score low”

Also just pointing out how something like that will be abused in TG

Unfortunately there doesn’t have to be a reason

HC took decades to get buffed, for no reason. There’s a number of legacy issues that took forever to get resolved or still aren’t resolved, for no reason

What might be good is to show the faith bar when it’s below 100%, this will make it easier to select the right monks for conversions.

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No, I understood. Indeed, I think a small chance for a very fast conversion is good for casual players.

Sure it can hurt if you can get converted quickly. But a wider conversion window also gives you a chance to get a monk snipe that you had no ‘right’ to get. And I personally think that makes the game more fun at my skill level.

Here’s an idea: why not make the conversion time fixed and part of units’ stats?

For example, 8 seconds for Scout Cavalry, 4 seconds for other mounted units/Onager/Bombard Cannon, 6 seconds for other units, and 20 seconds for buildings.

When you hear wololo, you can move your units within time to escape the conversion.
When wololo has reached the conversion time, the unit must be converted.
The units that once have been converted will take 25% less time to be converted than the ones that have not yet.
Faith and the Teutons’ bonus grant +50% time required by units respectively, and Inquisition -25% time on the contrary.

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I have a doubt. What would happen with a group of monks targeting one unit? Is it lineal? I mean, 2 monks convert a scout in 4 secs?

Of course not.
I feel setting a minimum required time is a good approach.
In addition to the conversion time, each unit would also have a minimum required time.

Then there could be two options:

  1. Stacking conversion reduction multiplicatively:
    Multiplicatively -X% time for every additional monk.
  2. Stacking conversion reduction additively:
    Additively -X% time for every additional monk.

If X is 10, and the conversion time/minimum required time for a Scout is 8/4 for example (since both times may need to be longer).
1 monk → 8 seconds
2 monks → 8 * 0.9 = 7.2 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 = 7.2 seconds (additively)
3 monks → 8 * 0.9^2 = 6.48 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 * 2 = 6.4 seconds (additively)
4 monks → 8 * 0.9^3 = 5.832 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 * 3 = 5.6 seconds (additively)
5 monks → 8 * 0.9^4 = 5.2488 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 * 4 = 4.8 seconds (additively)
6 monks → 8 * 0.9^5 = 4.72392 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 * 5 = 4 seconds (additively)
7 monks → 8 * 0.9^6 = 4.251528 seconds (multiplicatively) / 8 - 0.8 * 6 = 5̶.̶6̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶s̶ 4 seconds (additively)
8 monks → 8 * 0.9^7 = 3̶.̶8̶2̶6̶3̶7̶5̶2̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶s̶ 4 seconds (multiplicatively) / 4 seconds (additively)

Players don’t need to actually know the calculation process, just know that the more monks, the faster the conversion, but not necessarily the more efficient.

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