Discussion about the april patch

Im fine with the Changes for the Most Part. I think Leitis should be 60 Gold and Goth need a Bit more than that.

What I would propose for the nect Patch would be:

Italians:
Reduce genoese xbow and Elite Training time
Condotierro +1 pierce Armor

Byzantines
Reduce Cost of Cataphract Elite Upgrade
Reduce Cost of logistica
Give greek fire added effect of former persian Tech boiling oil. Increase cost slightly.

Goth
Infantry get +1/+1 Armor from feudal on
Infantry Bonus against buildings Starts from DA, so 1 more than it currently ist in each age.

Malay
Karambit Cost -5 gold

Ethiopian
Shotel Cost -5gold and food
Age Up Bonus =100/100 to feudal 200/200 to Castle 300/300 to Imp
Halb Upgrade Costs -50%

Indians
Elephant Archer +1attack ; Elite +2attack

Burmese
Skirmishers +1 pierce Armor

Everyone:
Heavy Camel +1attack

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Well I m not a dev so I do not know about other civs.But for italians my guess devs dont want them to be good on arabia or land maps because they are already no1. on water for indians I cant guess but I think they ll get something in upcoming updates and again balancing a game takes time and a lot of trial-error so we just have to wait and see.

For this I agree they need to be adressed as well.

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Have we calculated how much that actually is or are we just laughing at the seemingly small percentage? Slavs 15% farming bonus used to be the best bonus ever but 10% made them “very good bonus” at best. removing BBC already removes one of their deathball units, I can’t think of a worse nerf

They are still weak to halbs and heavy camels, melee armor don’t change that

again, you’re underestimating how deadly this RoF is. Farimba cavalier still can’t defeat paladins, Stirrups cavalier can’t either but does slighylybetter than Farimba

What about situations like against champions and eagles? think of the bigger picture

Yet its agreed by most that trashbows is annoying at best and their TC workrate is what made them top tier

Well obviously I can’t convince you how 0.88 is better than 0.77 speed, so we will leave this discussion

Irrelevant

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They don’t need to be good, just decent, and they are being nerfed in the water, so why not having a Minor buff on land?

Yes but it can’t be trial and error on a random base. [quote=“JoJo9942, post:23, topic:80696”]
again, you’re underestimating how deadly this RoF is. Farimba cavalier still can’t defeat paladins, Stirrups cavalier can’t either but does slighylybetter than Farimba
[/quote]

Farimba is stronger because if fits better the civ.

I think they beat them fine even before.

I disagree.

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As several people said several time, they are decent on land. Way more than what your bonuses would let you think.

??? Well, it affects light cav and camels on top of cavalier, but Bulgarian get Hussar and Konniks so I do’n’t see why Stirrup would be worse than Farimba.

And now they are going to be better at this job. That’s why they are interesting now: they are better at some stuff than other civs while not being always a 100% straight upgrade: ie.they are different.

Man, Bulgarian save tons of stone on their TCs, so they will easily get a castle up way before a Malian player can hit Imp.

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it may have been situational, but the maps where it was strong on, it was very strong. an auto pick.

its a nerf to bring them in line with what they should be.

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I really do not think they need this. Italians are already strong.

This is a good and conservative approach, which I think will fix a lot of Byz problems. I would just remove Paladin too, for a better discount in Elite Cata and Logistica upgrades.

Goth already are very dominant, and their Infantry being weaker is part of what makes them balanced. I am against giving them more Armour, as they already spam Infantry very quickly.
The Infantry Building damage bonus is something I agree. It should be +3 Damage on Castle Age, not Free Arson in Castle, and Free Arson + 1 in Imperial.

Malay are already fine, Karambits are a flash defense unit, and are already way too easy to spam.

I would just give them Free Halberdier back, and keep teh rest as it is now.

This would not do anything to make EAs more viable, and Indians do not need anything else.

They already butcher Paladins, so I disagree. At most, I would give them a small damage bonus against Eagle Warriors, since making them against Mesos is pointless, but even then, it is not like it is necessary, Heavy Camels are already a god-tier counter unit.

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exactly, the big thing for konniks is you need all the infantry and cavalry upgrades. cavalier will be the go to with ease. i’m pretty sure cavaliers with 33% attack speed bonus beat out paladins anyway.

it doesn’t need to be as fast a champion. the 14% speed buff helps them apply more pressure. its a total win for the unit.

yeah the goth buff was lackluster to say the least.

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nah free halb was insane, gave them halb ram switch so fast

yes but now they can engage them EEW with cavaliers too and obviously better vs champions with civ bonuses like Burmese or japanese, I don’t see why it’d be useless

Your original point was Farimba cav is better, but Malians having better eco doesn’t really matter here. Stirrups is much cheaper and can be researched in castle age

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Yes, it was situational but in this case situational equals map-dependant and it was ridiculously strong on certain maps so I think it’s a good change.

It’s not a huge nerf but it’ll have a noticeable effect, I assume. I like it better than taking away crop rotation or the like since the reduced farming rate already applies in the mid-game. Khmer were (and still will be) really strong at pressuring in early castle age and booming behind that.

We will have to see about that. They certainly will be stronger but I also think the changed cost will result in how the unit is used. They got more expansive on the food side while less so on the gold side. That’s a huge buff for imperial age but also a kind of a nerf for castle age when food income usually plays a greater role. Imo it totally makes sense for the Lithuanians gameplay: You don’t want to invest a lot of ressources into getting a castle up and Leitis running but getting map control and securing the relics so stable units would make more sense. When you transition to imp you can then switch into Leitis. And if you do not manage to get castles up there is still the possibility to use the knight-line. At least the general idea sounds great to me. If it turns out to be too strong it still can be adjusted.

Exactly. For the purpose of countering cav +2 infantry armor is gonna be super strong. I feel like the Teutons just became a bit of an anti-cav civ having a great pike line, heavy cavalry that beats the counterparts of most of the civs and also monks.

Well, think of how much faster Khmer elephants are compared to regular ones. Granted, they get a 15% boost but 10% is still gonna make the TK a lot faster. Obviously they can’t be as fast as a champ having that much attack, melee armor and hp.

Yes, it gives us more diversity in how to play the same units with different civs which is a good thing imo.

I totally agree. Lithuanians still won’t be easy to play (apart from a having an easy dark age) compared to civs that have very general eco and military bonuses because with Lithuanians you actually have to work harder to profit from your bonuses and that wide tech tree.

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Maybe, but without it, Ethiopians are just an Archer civ. They still had to shell out 1300 Food to get all the way to Siege Rams, which for a civ without Crop Rotation, bad Cavalry, and bad Cavalry Archers, is a go to item for Imp aggression.

It is not like Ethiopians are a very aggressive, pressuring civ. They are actually very single focused on one unit type.

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I think this was the worst balance change in the update.
Don’t damage the eco. Just add some cost to trashbow but do give them bracer.

Not really, they seemingly will stay.

Now they don’t need to choose between Paladins and Konniks. This one was a decent choice.

I don’t think so tbh, they are just trying out ideas.

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Because no one even before would have gone for eagles or champs against paladins, teutons or not.

No, maybe I misspoke, farimba for malians is better in general, thats what I meant, because in their civ design fit better than stirrups/no paladins for bulgarians.

And several people said that they aren’t even decent on land, so let’s end it on agreeing to disagree, because there is no end otherwise.

The choice and the different role of the units was what gave them strength.

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definitely useful in teamgames

Ah, the other guy also said its a nerf to bulgarians so that added up. Honestly tho, I hate this change because suddenly Bulgarians now have better knights than the classic cavalry civs (RIP Franks) after getting better Hussars than the classic hussar civs(without any bad trade off like missing plate barding)

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Welcome to how Goths felt when Malians were introduced.

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And how Goths felt when Slavs were introduced.

And how Goths felt when everybody else got Supplies…

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It… hurts so much… all over!
Bwaldir… I cannot fell my legs…

Where is the Huskarl and his Shield Wall?

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I dont think its just random changes at all now it just came to my mind that I think reason behind nerfing indians shore fish bonus is to prevent maps that involve shore fish being indians mirror all the time just like mongols hunt bonus nerfed so they dont get picked %100 of time on hunt heavy maps.

Also anohter proof that these are not some random changes is the fact there were tons of suggestions just from past month alone and how of many of those applied ? only couple of them so long story short these are not some random changes at all and yes even non random changes requires trial and error because things that sound good paper end up very bad and vice verse also true.

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I tested the new Stirrups and I must admit I like it quite a lot. I also feared it would make Konniks less attractive in Castle, but actually since I have at least 1 Castle up, I’m better off pumping Konniks rather than idle it.

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Btw what do you all think about the new map pool?

I think replacing acropolis and hideout by serengeti and hill fort is cool. Although I liked these two previous maps the new ones alter a lot of features but keep the idea of having one map very open and the other rather closed. The difference would be that we will probably see more men at arms strategies on seregenti compared to acropolis which was very much characterized by a lot of scouts. Still scouts work pretty well on seregenti. Regarding hill fort I expect it to play out more defensive early on than hideout but in the mid and late game it allows for more mobility. I personally don’t like Islands but I guess there is plenty of people having fun playing full water so that should be fine, as well.

The only thing I disagree with is keeping golden swamp. Although it can be quite fun because of all that messiness I really miss gold rush (or golden pitt). Along with arabia and arena it kind of has established as a classic map that has been played a lot in both tournaments and ranked matches which to me at least would justify keeping it permanently. Maybe the land/water balance might be the argument for not doing so because right now we have 4 land maps, 4 water/hybrid maps and MR which can be both. Since water usually implies less variety in terms of civs (not that much civs with signficant bonuses on water) and units, I’d consider having 5 land maps and 3 water/hybrid legitimate. But I admit that part is really subjective, maps such as cross don’t feature all that much water and at least as far as unit compositions go we oftentimes see the same as on full land maps.

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