Discussion on balance of new civilizations

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Mega Thread

This is my prediction on the performance of upcoming 5 new civs solely based on the civ bonuses and tech tree and almost zero gameplay.

Jurchens

Very mediocre. You get around 220 extra food in the Dark Age as your eco bonus and that is it. The amount is almost identical to Maya 15% longer lasting bonus. But Maya gets 1 extra villagers and 15% more resources throughout the game. Of course rest of the bonuses and tech tree are very different.

Jurchens are completely forced to play Scout Opening in open maps which is currently the worst opening thanks to Chicken Arabia. A surprise MAA ->Archer → CA is also viable and probably will be better than Scout Opening in Chicken maps. SL replacing Knights is an interesting design for sure. With 20% faster attack rate, they are better than Knight in melee combat. Surely they can buy long enough time for the main Knight replacement unit, the Iron Pagoda. Until that, you will have trouble against good archer civs. For closed maps, I think they have some potential with Fortified walls and towers and boom behind. But still way below average. And there is nothing for water and hybrid maps.

Summary
Open maps = Around #30 to #40 in 1v1, Around #15 at pocket or cav civ in TG.
Closed maps = Bottom 10 to 15 in both 1v1 and TG.
Hybrid and Water maps = Again bottom 10 to 15.

Khitanguts

Definitely stronger than Jurchens in eco. However not sure about over all early game aggression. They get around 70 extra food in Dark Age which is laughable in today’s standard. Pasture works very similar to Khmer farms however you can’t skip Barracks. Nor you have bloodlines. So Scout Opening will still be questionable. I think they should also try MAA → Archer → CA. 2 extra attack in Castle Age seems off set bloodlines but not enough for Feudal Scout. Just like Jurchens, they will also find difficulties against good archers. And probably even more because of not having bloodline or knight.

Liao Dao is over all very good unit and probably OP after the UT in some situations. In late game trash battle Khitanguts is definitely some of the top tier. Camel Catapult aka Mounted Trebuchet is an underpowered BBC imo. With only 10 base range they will always be out performed by BBC.

Summary
Open maps = Around #20 to #30 in 1v1, Around #10 to #15 at pocket or cav civ in TG.
Closed maps = Bottom 15 in both 1v1 and TG.
Hybrid and Water maps = Probably bottom 3.

Shu

Have long lasting eco bonus just like Celts, Slavs, Khmer. But very little for early game. And too one dimensional. Opponents will easily predict what is coming and react to that even if Shu gets their power spikes and timing correctly. Unlike Britons, their archer power spike is not permanent and can’t reverse the counter dynamic. Also having one of the worst stable makes them really bad against skirm+siege. (Not as much as Dravidians though).

White Feather Guard is everything Urumi isn’t. So that is definitely a big advantage. And in late game, this unit may become OP due to such low gold cost. On the other hand, the 2nd UU, war chariot seems pretty meh. I’ll prefer scorpion any day. Traction Trebuchet is a weaker version of both a BBC and Trebuchet. However with their +15% faster moving bonus I actually think they are better than BBC.

Over all I think they are just Ethiopians but weaker.

Summary
Open maps = Around #30 to #40 in 1v1, Around #10 as Flank/Archer civ in TG.
Closed maps = Around #15 in 1v1 and #10 in TG.
Hybrid and Water maps = Probably at middle like #20 to #30.

Wei

Definitely is the strongest TG civ among the new 5. They are giving me Burgundians but stronger vibe. Tiger Cavalry seems broken. And even before the Castle, they have the best Hei Guang Cav. Eco Bonus is hard to get advantage in open maps though. But will obviously as good as Burgundians in closed maps.

Summary
Open maps = Around #25 to #35 in 1v1, Around #10 as pocket/cav civ in TG.
Closed maps = Around #10 in 1v1 and #5 in TG.
Hybrid and Water maps = Bottom 15.

Wu

My bet is on them to be strongest. Although Khitans may prove me wrong. Wu has the most aggressive eco bonus for early game and that is combined with a very versatile tech tree except the Capped Ram. But I don’t think that is an issue as their traction trebuchet is probably the best among three when it comes to destroying building. And they are just one of the best civ in water maps and hybrid maps. I’m sure nerf will eventually come for their dock bonus.

Summary
Open maps = Around #20 to #25 1v1, Pretty average in TG pocket.
Closed maps = Around #30 in 1v1 and #15 to #20 in TG.
Hybrid and Water maps = Top 5 for sure.

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I have less and less desire to buy the new DLC when I read more and more discussion of new DLC.

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So far I have only tried Jurchen on closed maps (amazonian tunnel and arena). To be honest they feel really really strong. Here are my thoughts, as a 1.5k multiplayer elo. I apologise in advance for any lack of clarity as english is not my mother tongue.

The eco bonus is weak, but strong enough to assure a powerfull and efficient castle rush into ez boom. It allows you to commit mistakes, like forgetting to switch one sheperd to boar, which will continue to kill sheeps and waste food (sigh). A little bit like the houses bonus of hun which allows you to forgett about building houses.

The silver crown is completely overpowered and makes their castles extremely hard to take down. Plus, you save res and eco time by not sending vils to repair it.In my opinion it will be drastically nerfed.

They have a really open tech tree that makes virtually a lot of different compo viable. In late game in a close map bbc + grenadier + halbs works defitely. I have not tried yet Iron Pagoda.

On open map the scouts rush seems to be the obvious way to go, but I think that an archer rush can work as well. I have the feeling 20% faster attacks for scouts in feudal age will be claimed by pros to be too strong, and thereafter nerfed into a +10%, +15%, +20% in feudal castle and imperial age.

In both case a transition can be made in castle toward CA or into grenadier.
With siege engineer available in castle for less resources, grenadiers can be use to push TCs, counter halbs, skirm and Xbows, add pressure, or defend behind wood walls. They works exactly like tiny mangonnels and are extremely effcients are dealing with infantry and archers. And because they come out of archery, they offer a way to add siege without building a siege workshop.
I don’t think they are too strong, but i think siege engineer discount might be a little bit too much.

Summary
Open maps : top 10
Closed map : top 20

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I just noticed you have switched the Wu and the Kithan

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Can’t blame you on that. 11

Hopefully you won’t be discouraged to discuss on Jurchens and Khitanguts.

What? What did I switch?

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I think i made a mistake sorry XD
You wrote +2 atks for kithan in castle and 70 food in dark age, and somehow i thought you were speaking about the +2 attack bonus and the food bonus of the military buildings of the wu

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I see. I definitely underestimated them. Although Michi never came across my mind when I ranked them for closed maps. I only thought about Arena, Fortress, Hideout and similar maps.

Might be swapped with Imp UT. The Imp UT doesn’t feel that strong from the experimental videos that I have seen.

What? No Longswordsman, Knight, Camel, Thumb Ring, Redemption. How can they possibly make a lot of different combo? Also their eco can’t support double gold composition.

All being said, I don’t even own the DLC. So your first hand experience is definitely more valuable.

  1. So relatable. 5 civs at once is very hard to digest.

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for the most part i agree

its nice to see that those who are yelling p2w are probably wrong. but i dont think they’ll look at the stats when they come out anyways.

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I heard Khitan is very strong (very borderline OP) in Open map and Shu is some hot garbage, but I never test them.

Seems people are using Khitan steppe lancers to win games at 2k level.

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Don’t get why people say Shu is garbage when they have absurd FI arbalest potential with faster Traction trebuchets that don’t requiere Chemistry or Castles to start adding pressure, while that hero.makes all that army very hard to kill.

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I guess is that its because the civ is so bound to archers.

At least for Ethiopians you have some knight option at castle age and UT bombard cannon to deal with skirms.

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Yeah, I had a feeling. But why archer civs can’t kill them when they don’t have bloodlines?

You need to reach Imp first. That is probably not happening due to Malay/Dravidian tier stable and all of your archers are getting killed against mangonel.

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What, you really are saying this? I think you are understimating them heavily. They have an eco bonus that allows them to go more heavily into wood and kicks in earlier than farming bonuses (and its about as strong as Slavs in ammount of villager work time they give you), and then you will be able to use that food to get ll the cheaper upgrades. By late game its stronger than Slavs in terms of extra food per vill, and you have crazy good siege and the best late game arbs in terms of firepower (and by quite a lot)

I feel like their versatility will make them quite good, although not absolute top one since they lack an specific power unit to rely on

I think also you are really putting all civs ranking too low

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Maybe. Maybe I underestimating all 5 as you said at the end of your comment.

Put more lumberjack to maximize the eco bonus? Didn’t come across my mind. So they are better than I thought.

How? War Chariot is not better than Scorpion. And they don’t have SO either. Their Traction treb is better than BBC though.

One last comment on Shu:

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I agree on this.

Some says in reddit that Jian Swords is a bonker unit. Archers melt like they are facing huskarls. And they don’t trade that bad against cavalry like Huskarl.

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Ok, I may have been a bt too generous with their siege, but its still quite good,

archers still have insane damage, its two arrows not one and its warranted damage if it hits unlike Vikings who xan be blocked by armour, Vikings also lack thumb Ring unlike Shu

Im not talking about the Chariot tho, those suck just like the mpunted trebuchet (how can you make a mounted siege unit and make them worse in damage output, sloe and fragile? Like, a mounted trebuchet or ballista is unique enough why arr you giving them pointless weak gimmicks???)

It would have to be the first slow infantry unit to break the meta, its a very expensive unit from what I remember

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I don’t think scout opening is all that bad on Chicken arabia. It might be harder to pull off, but the chickens create an additional target - and spending wood on an additional mill means less wood for walling as well. Scout opening is weakened but so is the defense against scout opening.

For Jurchens specifically, their eco bonus makes their food sources last longer and allows them the option of abandoning their chickens with minimal penalty (after slaughtering them of course).

Khitans also have a perfectly respectable scout rush, especially after getting forging. Missing bloodlines hurts, but that tends to be more of a late Feudal tech (and requires mining gold anyways). And their food economy seems pretty strong to me (probably too strong). I think they can easily get away with a strong scout rush.

I think the Wei’s eco bonus might even be better than Vikings free wheelbarrow/hand cart if you get the eco techs. 3 vils (from DBA, horse collar, and gold mining) effectively ties the benefits from free wheelbarrow. And stone mining, heavy plow, and bow saw provide another 3 vils in castle age (which is more than the villager opportunity cost for hand cart). So very strong eco, but requiring investment allows counterplay (and means it takes some time to figure out). But on closed maps, it may be worthwhile to quickly get the feudal eco techs even if it means delaying castle age a little bit. On open maps, players will still often get DBA and sometimes horse collar. The bonus will also make gold mining easily justifiable, though that tech might not be as worthwhile to rush (unless you’re going a heavy archer opening)

Wu start is a weaker naval-start than Persians (who have +50f/w, which is more than the Wu get) and Georgians (who also effectively save 100 wood with their free mule cart). Careening and dry dock bonus will also be nice, but I don’t know how powerful they’ll be. They won’t be bad on water maps by any means, but I don’t think they’ll be top-tier. Builds may also have to be adjusted to move a villager off of food. Their team bonus (faster building houses) does feel nice to me (and is forgiving for mistakes in the build, as you can reduce idle TC time). However, while it’s good for avoid/reducing the penalty for getting housed, it shouldn’t be a significant economic benefit generally.

My own personal prediction before the DLC came out was that the civs would end up within 40-60% winrates, but that some of them would be around either 40 or 60.

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Probably not. They are weak against infantry. And will always be weak against siege.

Yep. 45f/50g. Very expensive.

I still don’t like the bad accuracy concept.

Yes. But MAA opening is buffed and defence against MAA is nerfed. Meaning there will always be advantage for MAA opening civs.

I underestimated them for not having bloodlines.

It is not in Feudal Age as you are spending resources to get extra villagers while Vikings get free villagers as well as save resources.

Very heavy investment. You have 1 villager lead over Vikings at that point after spending 900f/650w. No way that is better than Vikings.

Yeah, Persians will still be better in hybrid maps. But for water maps, you should always avoid picking Persians due to lack of Bracer.

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I have to add that the jurchen food bonus is actually a really powerfull tool against laming. You can actually kill all your herdables and animal right at the start of the game. You won’t loose any food by decay and prevent the enemy to kill with scout or militia. Therefore you can focus more your attention on the aggression and need less to defend.

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Not balanced at all.
A non-professional team made this.

When this tiny forum is discussing about the balance. Some of our players have invented Wu’s swordmen rush and nearly won every game.
The swordmen cost little and can recovery.

I hope MS can invite the top 200 players of the game to share their opinions, not listen to such a tiny forum.

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Just trash in every possible map, passable in TG Arabia as flanks.

They are worse than the Dravidians, because at least the Dravidians have good skirms. I guess the answer is to go UU versus Skrims. But that is really doubtful. They are Ethiopians without siege.

I prefer BBCs every day of the week, even better if like the Ethiopians have some bonuses. I simply hope that they will be removed (along with their two “brothers”) from the base game.

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